Economy dependant Military

[ZergMazter]

Never mind this thread. The Editor is too limited and in its current form it will never be able to work stuff as they are on later civ games. Every time you find an answer to your problem you create a new problem.

EDIT: NEVER MIND WHAT I SAID UP! I figured something out i think Scroll to the last comment...

 

[ZergMazter]

Can the editor be hacked to change the rules? Something basic to use as an example would be to limit unit making somehow by using shields as in civ 2 (1 shield per unit made) or making cities to only support a max of 2-6 units depending on goverment and city size, or consume a strategic resource or something!!! Anyone?

The main reason i keep beating the AI is because i got no limitations as a human when it comes to making units. I can make thousands with no real downside to stop me. Gold never ends...

Im thinking re-tuning the economy, but oh boy that phrase is easier written than what it sounds. It is a major undertaking, and then you have to test it to see if it works... it usually screws up the early game in my experience.

 

[Mopean]

There are 'hacked' editors such as Steph's and ... Quintillus' (or however you spell it) which allow for some interesting things to be done, such as negative maintenance costs (making that building give money rather than take it away)

 

[Quintillus]

I'm afraid that these ideas, as well as most/all of the ones in your other thread, aren't really possible. The best that can really be done is adjusting the support options. There is at least one scenario where the economy does play a noticeable limiting factor in military support - Pink Tilapia's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. That might be a good scenario to look at. It's also innovative in its technological progression.

I did just test this, and you can set the free units to negative or the units supported per city to negative in my editor, and the game will mostly recognize that. There's still a minimum of zero, but if you set free units to -5 and town support to 4, and build two towns, you'll have a support of three. Perhaps it could be used to model an increasing reliance on regular armies over militias as time goes on - towns give support, cities take a way a little bit, and metropolises a lot.

But other than that... I think you're pretty much looking at variations on what the CFC community has been experimenting with since the game came out.

 

[Lionic]

Can the editor be hacked to change the rules? Something basic to use as an example would be to limit unit making somehow by using shields as in civ 2 (1 shield per unit made) or making cities to only support a max of 2-6 units depending on goverment and city size, or consume a strategic resource or something!!! Anyone?

The main reason i keep beating the AI is because i got no limitations as a human when it comes to making units. I can make thousands with no real downside to stop me. Gold never ends...

Im thinking re-tuning the economy, but oh boy that phrase is easier written than what it sounds. It is a major undertaking, and then you have to test it to see if it works... it usually screws up the early game in my experience.

Making all units (not only Settlers and Workers) to consume population, increasing unit support cost, making unit support per city negative is possible with a regular editor and does make builing up a huge army more difficult.

 

[ZergMazter]

I'm afraid that these ideas, as well as most/all of the ones in your other thread, aren't really possible. The best that can really be done is adjusting the support options. There is at least one scenario where the economy does play a noticeable limiting factor in military support - Pink Tilapia's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. That might be a good scenario to look at. It's also innovative in its technological progression.

I did just test this, and you can set the free units to negative or the units supported per city to negative in my editor, and the game will mostly recognize that. There's still a minimum of zero, but if you set free units to -5 and town support to 4, and build two towns, you'll have a support of three. Perhaps it could be used to model an increasing reliance on regular armies over militias as time goes on - towns give support, cities take a way a little bit, and metropolises a lot.

But other than that... I think you're pretty much looking at variations on what the CFC community has been experimenting with since the game came out.

Oh man Interesting! I think i kinda get what you are saying but can you please give me a short example. English is my second language, but are you really saying that if you got a town and it turns into a city, it will cost you gold, or just support points?

 

[ZergMazter]

Also i've seen someone with a brilliant idea! He focused on making government specific buildings, and as a result you would base your economy on that idea of a government. If your or the AI went into anarchy due to war you would instantly lose access to those gov specific buildings crushing your economy, and you would have to build that gov's specific economy buildings, or w/e buildings.

At least thats what read and in theory how the game should work. Like how 'Secret Police HQ' from communism works.

It would work nicely since changing your government is no joke and it would clearly reflect, and before you can reap the military benefits from that gov you would have to rebuild your infrastructure. Of source going back to your main gov during peace times would give you back your old infastructure

 

[Quintillus]

Oh man Interesting! I think i kinda get what you are saying but can you please give me a short example. English is my second language, but are you really saying that if you got a town and it turns into a city, it will cost you gold, or just support points?

To be specific, it would reduce your unit support, which would in effect cost you gold if you were above the support limit (or if you weren't before, but now were). It would be kind of like Feudalism in the regular game, in that the support goes down as the city grows, but it would actually be a penalty in unit support at some point, rather than just less of a bonus.

I don't know how useful it would be, but I don't think I've seen anyone try this before, so I figured I might as well throw it out there as an idea that someone might find works well in their scenario.

Also i've seen someone with a brilliant idea! He focused on making government specific buildings, and as a result you would base your economy on that idea of a government. If your or the AI went into anarchy due to war you would instantly lose access to those gov specific buildings crushing your economy, and you would have to build that gov's specific economy buildings, or w/e buildings.

At least thats what read and in theory how the game should work. Like how 'Secret Police HQ' from communism works.

It would work nicely since changing your government is no joke and it would clearly reflect, and before you can reap the military benefits from that gov you would have to rebuild your infrastructure. Of source going back to your main gov during peace times would give you back your old infastructure

I've played a scenario with that idea. Unfortunately, I don't remember which scenario it was off the top of my head. I know that I played Russia in that scenario, but that probably doesn't help, especially since it was a random map.

 

[ZergMazter]

I've succeeded tying my armies to my economy after a lot of trial and error!!!! For those who hates how everyone gets like 1 million gold late in the game and nothing to spend it on:

GOVERNMENTS:

I started by giving 3 to 4 gold cost per unit per turn after you go over your unit support. I gave 10-20 free unit support depending on the government so that in the early stages it wouldnt be so brutal. I mean who could afford 3-4gold per turn per unit in the middle ages? I also played with the unit support per city. Basically earlier govs have a higher free unit support, but a lesser city support, that way you dont get in trouble unless you or the AI is trying to overdo themselves. All in all monarchy will still feel like monarchy in the early stages, republic will feel republic and so on.

Later govs get less free unit support while their city support increases, and eventually when u get to communism and fascism all free unit support is gone but city support and city support is left standard for communism and fascism. By this time support with your own gold is not an issue unless you are a warmongering fool who neglected their economy . Oh yea and i added 4/4/4 support to democracy due to the cost for support being a little high.

ECONOMY:

I made gold more reliant on the resources and improvements than tiles themselves. I added collateral damage to some invisible units which will blow up your economy in a war. I gave +1 naval defense to economy buildings meaning that they will get blown up first when bombarded in coastal cities. The high cost per unit support was intended so that when the AI started to destroy your economy, you start losing decent gold per turn and use it as a form of war attrition for both humans and the AI. Unable to support ur troops you will be forced to lower research and you will start draining your coffers from gold every turn. Thats what i call a trade embargo instead of the puny civ 3 one, and its effects will be felt long after the war. You can do this also to punish economically the AI. Also air trade has been transferred to the commercial dock so that when you destroy all of them docks it can act as a forced trade embargo.

UNITS:

Last but not least. It looks ridiculous that the AI or anyone can just build a road to a resource, be broke as a bum, yet get the latest gadgets. My solution is to flag all the top end units of an age with the 'king' flag so they come off the build que and only available thru upgrade, and increase its cost to something doable within the age, but not so easy either. Even if you are a rich nation, if you are careless and you suffer casualties to your infrastructure, war attrition sets in and since every top end unit will need to be achieved thru an upgrade from its previous generation, in a not so distant future not only will u have a high cost to support your units, but you might also run out of gold to upgrade to the top end of the unit chain. Even if only suffer unit casualties you will need to build new ones and upgrade them all over again.

CONCLUSION:

I played it and im quite happy with how it feels. It stops being the simple minded civ 3 game which you just pump out units for 200 turns to try and control the world. There are other factors at play now, and if overlooked they could drag you back and take a while to make a full recovery. By that time the AI might have become as strong as you or even stronger.

NOTE:

This is a good thing to do for anyone who doesnt like to play the game on the highest difficulty meaning that the AI will cheat and all techs will be researched in about 100 turns. I like it at monarch and it feels more real and challenging for me. It is ideal for anyone wanting to enjoy each era, and enjoy trade and diplomacy instead of the good old warmongering ways . I do not recommend modifying a mod for the highest difficulty lol. It might be overkill for a human. You will be killed twice.

Who knows maybe someone is wanting to make a mod with stuff like this but it never came to them. I hope this helps someone, and if u do make a mod with similar things I will also download. Im horrible at creating mods lol. I dont do civilopedia work.

 

[timerover51]

ZergMazter, it looks like you have come up with a very viable way to control the unrestricted growth of Armies, without going the auto-production route. Is there any possibility of your posting your scenario for the rest of us to experiment with? I really like the idea of later governments having to pay more for unit upkeep, as a former supply officer, what really keeps unit numbers under control is having to supply them.

 

[ZergMazter]

Sure... i had overwritten half of it cuz its actually my personal mod, but I got my notes with the missing half let me just fully assemble it and i will post shortly.

In the mod i will post shortly when it comes to the economy its not exactly balanced around numbers since its only made to show. However balanced the right way by someone who knows what they are doing it can be fun as heck.

Just give me like a day or 2 im currently working on a musical album but will get a break shortly

 

[timerover51]

Sure... i had overwritten half of it cuz its actually my personal mod, but I got my notes with the missing half let me just fully assemble it and i will post shortly.

In the mod i will post shortly when it comes to the economy its not exactly balanced around numbers since its only made to show. However balanced the right way by someone who knows what they are doing it can be fun as heck.

Just give me like a day or 2 im currently working on a musical album but will get a break shortly

That is fine. Did you just modify governments and costs, or did you add more units and government types?

 

[ZergMazter]

I modified the default governments:

Despotism=1
Monarchy =2
Repuplic =3
Feudalism=4
Democracy=5
Communism=6
Fascism =7


FREE SUPPORT

1-20
2-20
3-15
4-15
5-10
6-5
7-5

COST PER UNIT IN NEED OF SUPPORT

1-3
2-4
3-3
4-3
5-3
6-3
7-4

CITY UNIT SUPPORT

1-4/4/4
2-4/6/8
3-4/4/4
4-8/6/4
5-4/4/4
6-8/8/8
7-4/8/10

Im planning to increase the free unit support or city support till i reach the sweet spot. Early to mid game this works nice, but after the industrial age players are just getting too much gold in my mod because i got 31 civs. I trade with the AI and i get like 1000 per turn, and im only in the industrial age, so i can go over my limit and not really have any penalties some times. Im thinking that every nation should afford a small army with city support, and free support, then after the support is gone maybe 4-6g per unit to support them.

Been thinking about 10g per turn to support as well, but i will have to increase the support even more. From age 1-3 you shouldnt need to exceed your limit. the 10g per turn is meant for the 4th age to make use of the thousands of gold the AI and the human players get. At the same time due to the way resources are set up, in a war you might end up like -200g/turn due to improvement loss. I noticed how the AI bombs my workers for no reason and destroys my roads and i think i got an idea...

Im also gonna start experimenting with teleporting. If i can manage to trick the AI to rescue flag units and return them to their capitol then maybe i could have auto produced trade units like in civinator's CCM mod yield a LOT of gold. I would just reduce gold bonus form tiles and resources.

For the love of God someone fix the coding in this game lol... Too much was left out man. Its sad

 

[timerover51]

For the love of God someone fix the coding in this game lol... Too much was left out man. Its sad

Antal is working on the coding, but he probably could use some help. I really like your ideas and I will try to play around with them some as well.