Education too powerful?

[Yong]

I remembered the twick to remove the free Great Sage from Writing, because the Great Sage was so powerful that everyone has no choice but to follow Education - Writing at the beginning of the game.

I though with the Great Sage gone I can try prioritizing other tech pathes but after serveral games I think Education is still the first tech to go. Education offer two blessings: City State and Cottage. City State reduce your maintenance and therefore enable your to expand; Cottage is almost your only reliable source of income.

At emperor or above, if you still don't have Education when your 3rd city is built, you will likely have to set your research to 30% or even lower; but if you don't build 3 cities before AI encroach all the spaces, your mid-game live will be pretty hard. A seems simple solution to this dilema is to set Education as the first priority under any circumstance, which I don't really like.

Therefore I think City State and Cottage should go under 2 different techs to offer player a choice. How do you think?

 

[smurven]

If city states is really the only thing that lets you get past the early game, i think that city states is too powerful, and city maintenance too high. That should be fixed rather than changing education first in my opinion.

 

[Tarquelne]

Education is a powerful tech, but given its position in the tree, and that cottages take awhile to develop fully, I think that's fine.

I think City States is too powerful, though. In our LAN games it's reduction in maintenance was moved down to, IIRC, 50 or 60% and it's remains the most popular Civc. It's no longer considered almost a "Must Have", though.

 

[Kael]

I remembered the twick to remove the free Great Sage from Writing, because the Great Sage was so powerful that everyone has no choice but to follow Education - Writing at the beginning of the game.

I though with the Great Sage gone I can try prioritizing other tech pathes but after serveral games I think Education is still the first tech to go. Education offer two blessings: City State and Cottage. City State reduce your maintenance and therefore enable your to expand; Cottage is almost your only reliable source of income.

At emperor or above, if you still don't have Education when your 3rd city is built, you will likely have to set your research to 30% or even lower; but if you don't build 3 cities before AI encroach all the spaces, your mid-game live will be pretty hard. A seems simple solution to this dilema is to set Education as the first priority under any circumstance, which I don't really like.

Therefore I think City State and Cottage should go under 2 different techs to offer player a choice. How do you think?

I think its a very effective build strategy. But is it more powerful than an axeman rush (bronze working), hunter rush (hunting), or a religion rush, or going for early mages (sorcery)?

I dont know. I suspect if depends on your civ, map type and your neighbors. If you can count on peace through the early part of the game I think your strategy works well, but its also extremly vulnerable to pillaging and early offense.

 

[Halancar]

Well, unless you happen to start near the right bonuses, Education is more or less the only way to increase commerce, and therefore research. I'm fairly certain that the fastest way to sorcery or a religion, for instance, is through education And getting it first doesn't delay an axeman or hunter rush all that much either.

Which is why it's a relatively hard tech to get to, for a basic mprovement tech. No need to change that.

On the other hand, City State is in my opinion the best civic in its category. Anything else is just too expensive with any decent-size empire. And having the best civic in a category be among the very first available, and in a tech that's already a must have anyway, is a little sad. It might well need a little nerfing. Either lowering the benefits, or adding something like -25% research.

 

[Arcite36575]

Yup

City-states definately needs a bit of a nerf. I like Tarquelne's idea of reducing the maintenance cut to around 50% or so. Generally, the only civics I use are city-states or godking if I have a tiny nation.

 

[smurven]

mmm, godking with kuriotates....

 

[Arilian]

Yup

City-states definately needs a bit of a nerf. I like Tarquelne's idea of reducing the maintenance cut to around 50% or so. .

This is exatcly what i thinking.

City states is way too powerful.

 

[uberfish]

If city states is toned down the overall maintenance cost ought to be lowered too.

 

[WCH]

Huh. I've never used City States... guess I just love the production bonus from God King too much.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Huh. I've never used City States... guess I just love the production bonus from God King too much.

Quoted to save me from re-writing it.

 

[daladinn]

cottages are nice but let me offer some experiments for you...

1 - go ahead and do this on an always peace map so that your comparing economies.

2 - decide on the number of cities and the timing ( lets say 3 cities ) , and use the same map for each trial (just save the 1st turn)

3 - try your cottage industry via education , try a specialist economy via mysticism , and try to build a trade economy (think trade routes , maybe great lighthouse).

4 - make a note on when the cities are founded , and when your tech per turn passes the turn counter.

try this with different civs and different religions. you will find that all the religions do alot of different things to economies and that you have to handle them uniquely to maximize things.

 

[WCH]

Yeah. It'd be cool to compare different early-game economic strategies, like a RoK rush, going for Markets, cottage spamming... see on which turn each becomes self-sustaining.

 

[kumquatelvis]

But is it more powerful than an axeman rush (bronze working), hunter rush (hunting), or a religion rush, or going for early mages (sorcery)?

If you do these things end you up conquering a bunch of cities. Which of course means that you need City States or your empire will founder.

 

[WCH]

Early game I have three tech goals...
1) Found the religion I want ASAP
2) Get a solid defensive unit... Archer if the religion I want is FoL, Axeman if the religion I want is RoK.
3) Become economically stable, possibly via Markets, possibly via RoK, possibly via Cottages.

RoK + Bronze Working covers all my bases pretty well, provided I'm playing as the right Civ. If I'm Elves, obviously FoL + Education + Archery is preferable.

Also, if I've got a lot of desert, streamlining for Elementalism so I can cast Spring a few times is a must.

 

[Verily]

Quoted to save me from re-writing it.

It's good, but I just started trying out an early City States switch instead of going for Mysticism and God King first and then switching to City States after getting five towns set up, and City States seems like the better choice. The only exception I can think of would be if you start near Gold or Gems and can work those for tons of commerce in your capital.

 

[Maniac]

I think its a very effective build strategy. But is it more powerful than an axeman rush (bronze working), hunter rush (hunting), or a religion rush, or going for early mages (sorcery)?

I dont know. I suspect if depends on your civ, map type and your neighbors. If you can count on peace through the early part of the game I think your strategy works well, but its also extremly vulnerable to pillaging and early offense.

I once did a Hunter rush with the Svartalfar, but had to raze the cities I captured because I couldn't pay for them.
The civ I destroyed was on a pensinsula which only I could reach, which meant I could resettle the area myself after I had Education and cottages and could support extra cities. But I'd say usually going to war without having Education (and thus razing cities) just means creating extra expansion room for other civs.

 

[schlalex]

City States is the bomb, i agree. But i dont think it should be changed. On large Maps with many cities it is the lifesaver. And i am not only talking about me, but the AI as well. Imagine it without these bonuses...
i think the other way round. Why not improve the other civics to compete with CS ?!

 

[Ecofarm]

If I'm Elves, obviously FoL + Education + Archery is preferable.

Why archery? You don't have warfare for city defense and hunters are better, upgrade to stack defenders and come with FoL.

I can only see going archery for Gilden.

-----

Over many tests with many maps, settings and civs, I find that if I try something other than education first, my tech rate suffers horribly to turn 150 (quick).

 

[Polycrates]

I think Education vs Mysticism is one of the very best parts of the tech tree. I always find the decision about which to go for first is quite a difficult one.

Education's cottages have the most raw research potential, but their downside is that they require quite a lot of worker action, need a fair bit of flatland space (not a given with super-foresty maps like Creation), and need quite a lot of protecting from barbarians.

Elder councils give a more immediate +5 research in cities where you've built them, which is is not as much, but still very good for getting the research ticking along. More importantly, you get a big headstart on that first Great Sage, who can seriously boost research with an academy in the capital.
Plus God King is a great early civic, and with only a couple of cities, the extra gold in the capital can equal the cheaper cost of City States, while giving you a massive production bonus that really helps pump out the massive numbers of warriors and settlers etc that the early game requires. City States is pretty overpowered, but its effects aren't really felt as much in the very early game.
And of course Mysticism is the gateway to the religions, so skipping Education for a while and using Councils to go grab a religion can be worthwhile.
Also, Mysticism is a fair bit cheaper than Education, letting you get a start earlier.

So yeah, I really like how Education and Mysticism are balanced, and really make for an interesting earlygame choice. You eventually need both, of course, but you can survive quite happily on one or the other for quite a while.