Education too powerful?

[Pyr0mancer]

lets assume your running godking out of your capital. you have to remember that your getting a +50% to hammer and a +50% to "gold" . if your trying to run a full research load your going to inherently lose. however , just adding one great profit to the city will result in a net bonus of 3 hammers and 7-8 gold.

the next thing you need to look at is the financial techs. getting trade and currency and mathematics results in a good amount of gold to offset your upkeeps. NEVER underestimate trade routes. also the building that gives your happiness for every 10% to gold is a godsend.

The building mentioned is the Gambling House, which gives +3 as well as the +1 per 10% rate. Another added bonus is the 'Jackpot' event, where you can get +1 permanently for maybe 100 at most.

Don't forget holy shrines also. I prefer to use my Great Prophets for those instead, they're far more useful than simply settling one, since you get a benefit that scales with your empire (and then some), as well as free mana and more specialist slots.

I tend to prioritize the capture of Holy Cities during war though, and spread religions I have the shrine for like a madman. By mid/late game I've usually got 4-5 holy shrines, and can run 100%:beakers: and still have a surplus of gold while running GK.

As for WW, Religion or Social Order usually takes care of it. +2 per temple x 4-5 temples is more than enough for most wars.

 

[Humakty]

I usually balance the excess WW with nationhood (?right name?). I have never met the crushing WW everyone talks about, but it is true I mainly play factions which have bonuses. (clan, calabim)

 

[onedreamer]

Well, unless you happen to start near the right bonuses, Education is more or less the only way to increase commerce, and therefore research.

Not really. To make use of Education early you also must happen to start near the right resources: IE a forestless start.

City states is way too powerful.

City States is definitely not an early game civic to adopt.
1) it reduces the cost of distance from palace from a great deal, which you most often won't need in the early game. The reduction for number of cities is minimal.
2) initially your capital is by far the center of your activity, hence God King is much better
3) it greatly decreases culture, which is bad in the early game.

City States is a powerful civic to adopt when you go on a rampaging conquest and expand a lot. Otherwise its boni aren't worth sacrificing God King, Aristocracy or Republic. Since this civic is most useful not at the beginning of the game, having it available with an early tech doesn't make this tech too powerful IMO.

I think its a very effective build strategy. But is it more powerful than an axeman rush (bronze working), hunter rush (hunting), or a religion rush, or going for early mages (sorcery)?

Well, "early" mages isn't really as early as Education
But no, compared to other strats it's not overpowered IMHO.

I dont know. I suspect if depends on your civ, map type and your neighbors. If you can count on peace through the early part of the game I think your strategy works well, but its also extremly vulnerable to pillaging and early offense.

Every strategy depends on thos factors
For example I play with Aggressive AI, which means wars will start before turn 70 (normal speed). But I wouldn't go as far as saying that cottages are weak in case of early wars... unless you're at war with Tasunke.

 

[onedreamer]

I think Education vs Mysticism is one of the very best parts of the tech tree. I always find the decision about which to go for first is quite a difficult one.

Or education vs festivals. Markets are a big help early on in keeping your research rate high.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Look, it's a fact that everyone needs to get education sooner or later. It's like the wheel (or is it called exploration in FFH2? Forgot): it's a worker tech. I feel it's perfectly alright to require every civ to get worker techs. The real problem is the city-states civic, not the education tech. Even a specialist economy needs cottages, unless you're playing one of those "no-cottages" extreme variants.

 

[Isaiah]

Huh. I've never used City States... guess I just love the production bonus from God King too much.

DItto .....

 

[onedreamer]

The real problem is the city-states civic.

why ? Analyze all its pros and cons, compare them to other civics, and you'll see that it's not. For one, it's only good when you're going for a conquest/domination victory.

 

[Arilian]

My problem is with City States that if i have a whole contintinent of cities with courthouses/winter palace ther is no reason to change the city states to anything if I dont want to lose a LOT of gold. (Especially if you have overseas cities)

If you do not use it just Reload some of your old games/Switch to city states and see that you can increase science output by 10-20% with the same monew income....

There is a lot of other options, that a only use if: 1. i want extreme culture/cultural victory. 2. my people demand republic (almost never happens)

I play in Deity level (with reloads so i am not so expert...) and every gold counts.
(Stangely enemy culture does not seems to scale with difficulty level in any way so it is not an issue)

 

[Demus]

imho even switching to city states with 5 cities is beneficial. Sure, you lose some production from your capitol, but by then you're already in the double figures for city maintenance, granting you an additional 8 gold saved on upkeep. And frankly, i almost always get over 5 cities, so it'll keep improving. To get the same 8 gold from godking, in a stage where it's basically impossible to have over 25 commerce in your capitol, you'd still need to drop atleast 30% in your science ratio, which would lower science output from your other cities aswell (which would hurt your science simply from the trade commerce alone).

But frankly, it's not about city states - god king, nor about SE - CE. It's the fact you get an important worker tech, a (very) viable economic civic AND additional exp from apprentienship all in the same technology which makes education possibly the single strongest tech in the game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

why ? Analyze all its pros and cons, compare them to other civics, and you'll see that it's not. For one, it's only good when you're going for a conquest/domination victory.

So, by turn 100 on normal speed, If I'm playing a peaceful civ, I'll have about 3 cities, give or take the barbarian threat. I generally get education about the time I make my first settler, and have a worker whose been building farms, ready to start building cottages. While it's possible I may have chosen a first city without much flatland, my second city will necessitate it. Costs for two cities generally gets to about 3 or 4 gold, 2 with City states. At this point, it's merely a nice perk to go along with my apprenticeship and cottage production.

Now that I have it, though, I can pretty much expand as much as the barbarians or nearby civ's will let me. THe 'culture' penalty you speak of is almost completely unimportant. Who needs culture for more than the first 10, and then the fringe benefits of 100? I mean, it's 'nice' but being able to pay for an empire of 5 to 6 cities is better.

If I'm *not* playing a peaceful civ, this all gets more important. I'll be taking out my nearest enemy with warriors likely as soon as I get apprenticeship, and if I want to keep those cities, city states is now a Must, due to the much larger distance costs that would be associated with it. In order to keep my economy rolling, once again cottages will be needed. If I don't have education, I likely will need to raise cities I capture, lest I stagnate.

Obviously all of this is predicated on what the exact conditions of the game are, but these are the two most common that I can think of. Sometimes you start near like 3 wines, and crafting suddenly becomes important. That's rare though.

And yeah, it's not that I've *never* gotten mysticism first. But it's hardly ever the right choice. Only when growth is simply not an option. If I rush RoK, for instance, and get the holy city in my capital, than maybe God King will go for a while. But it is in fact fleeting.

 

[westamastaflash]

What about going for festivals instead of education to deal with early game $ issues?

 

[KingOfLands]

What about going for festivals instead of education to deal with early game $ issues?

Great with Khazad, probably applicable elsewhere.

 

[Ringtailed]

What about going for festivals instead of education to deal with early game $ issues?

A market is a net gain of 2 commerce (+3 gold, -1 science) in exchange for 60 hammers. One citizen working one hamlet has the same net yield. Markets are good to build if you have them, but I wouldn't go out of my way early to get them and I definitely would not try to use them to replace education.

Interestingly enough, you're better off building elder councils than markets. Same net yield of +2, it's just sci instead of gold so turn your slider down to compensate, and mysticism is a more useful tech to have early (god king civic, on the way to KOTE and religions).

 

[Zechnophobe]

A market is a net gain of 2 commerce (+3 gold, -1 science) in exchange for 60 hammers. One citizen working one hamlet has the same net yield. Markets are good to build if you have them, but I wouldn't go out of my way early to get them and I definitely would not try to use them to replace education.

Interestingly enough, you're better off building elder councils than markets. Same net yield of +2, it's just sci instead of gold so turn your slider down to compensate, and mysticism is a more useful tech to have early (god king civic, on the way to KOTE and religions).

Only real nice thing about markets is they let you fine tune your economy. It's always annoying when you, at 80% sci are losing 3 gold, and banktrupting, but at 70% are making 10 a turn.

Course, you could still just micromanage it...

 

[Sureshot]

great merchant strats are the main reason to build markets (a lot of fun as alexis)

 

[Maniac]

maniac ...

lets assume your running godking out of your capital. you have to remember that your getting a +50% to hammer and a +50% to "gold" . if your trying to run a full research load your going to inherently lose. however , just adding one great profit to the city will result in a net bonus of 3 hammers and 7-8 gold.

the next thing you need to look at is the financial techs. getting trade and currency and mathematics results in a good amount of gold to offset your upkeeps. NEVER underestimate trade routes. also the building that gives your happiness for every 10% to gold is a godsend.

the key thing to wrap your mind around is the understanding of where all the math works out and how.

Trade, Currency and Mathematics all require Education, and aren't really early game techs anymore. I bet you'd get much quicker to those techs by going Education and cottages/City States first.

(Later in the game other options besides City States and cottages of course become possible.)

And if your only way of being able to maintain cities, is getting a Prophet, this means you can't run Sages, thus denying you one of the two possible early game specialists (a priest and a sage).

 

[uberfish]

Not really. To make use of Education early you also must happen to start near the right resources: IE a forestless start.

If it starts you in the middle of a forest and you aren't an elf civ... move! The starting settlers have 4 move for a reason, and having to wait for bronze working to build any improvements at your capital simply isn't acceptable for anything other than warrior rushing.

 

[smurven]

I still think that should be changed. Having early teching slower, and getting the ability to cut down trees so much harder to get to than regular civ really wreaks havoc on new players. Starting in forests wasn't something that they needed to avoid like the plague in regular civ. I think it'd be nice if you could cut them down at 1/2 speed or something before bronze working.

 

[Sureshot]

opportunism would say to use the added production to your advantage heh

 

[RogueThunder]

Because it'd require more work.

I do think that'd be better, though. For the LAN mod we kept tweaking civics until we started using more of them. Though I don't think we ever touch the Compassion line - didn't care .

None of ya ever run expansive leaders do ya XD...

Public healers FTW. Heck, even as organised its quite affordible for the global boost it gives ya...

Note: I have used it in ONE game I didnt have organised or expansive in... I had erm... gotten my gold economy a little rediculous... (6 great merchants in one city, bazarr... some great preists...)

And well, if your Ashen Veil, of COURSE we know what youve chosen in compassion...

I barely notice the difference between Sac-the-weak and Basic care, and well. Protect the meek isnt worth the upkeep.


Now as for the threads subject of education, and city states being the real focus off it...

I use it 90% of the time. The other 10%, is god king. And I do know someone who uses aristo rather often. Although he tends to fall a little behind doing so. Oh, and late game as cardith I did once use republic to alot of good purpouse. But really, city states and to a lesser extent god king seem like the utter best of their civic catigory.... Which shouldnt be right. As theyre the first.

I mean, in other catigories... say culturual values.... theres one that I find usless... Utterly. But well. Ugh, pacifism. but all 7 others are VERY usefull in some intance or another that comes up now and again.
In labor? Nothing useless there, well, other than starting, but that ones ment to be blank.
Economy? Holy cow, the hard choices...although Merc is certianly the least usefull. While definately still of use.
Okay, you already know my critisims of compassion. Would be nice to get some rounding out here... this catigory is sparce and flavorless... basicaly reading "Ashen veil" "Whatever" "whatever" "whatever" "Expansive/organised loves"...
Membership is membership. XD Unless were starting a neutral council of neutralness, where we vote on what to be neutral about... It doesnt need to be talked about.


Education is always high in my to-do list. Usually just after either RoK, or Markets. This does strike me as a little much. Then again, I'm an expansion whore. The obvous exception being playing cardith lorda. Who, well, XD... Early game shoudnt even THINK of city states. In contrast, he still needs edu, as cottage economy is his FRIEND.

So is edu too strong? Maybe a little. City states could certainly use some tweaking. Although I have to say, I would like some other-more minor methods of reducing my city upkeep. Perhaps under economy/compassion. Economy because it makes some sense.. and compassion because its a bit... sparce.

Well, theres my 42 cents.