Education too powerful?

[onedreamer]

Costs for two cities generally gets to about 3 or 4 gold, 2 with City states.

heh, care to show us a screenshot ?

THe 'culture' penalty you speak of is almost completely unimportant. Who needs culture for more than the first 10, and then the fringe benefits of 100? I mean, it's 'nice' but being able to pay for an empire of 5 to 6 cities is better.

Your opinions/strategies are mere opinions/strategies Zechnophobe, but you insist in presenting them as the only possible truth. Also, when you have 6 cities, you should have researched all the second line techs, making the claim that Education is too powerful compared to other early techs void.

If I'm *not* playing a peaceful civ, this all gets more important.

-_-"
you quoted my sentence stating the same thing... Yeah City States is good for expanding. It's a GOOD civic. Let me stress the fact that it's good once again, so you don't miss it. But we don't need to see if it's a good civic. What we are discussing is: does it make Education too powerful ? My answer was no, for the reasons I stated. Your reply is quite OT.

A market is a net gain of 2 commerce (+3 gold, -1 science) in exchange for 60 hammers. One citizen working one hamlet has the same net yield. Markets are good to build if you have them, but I wouldn't go out of my way early to get them and I definitely would not try to use them to replace education.

markets net gold not commerce. It is an error to consider gold and beakers modifiers at the same level of commerce ones. A market doesn't yeld the same as a hamlet because in order to produce 3 gold with a hamlet you need to lower your research bar, which will also influence other cities as well. The -1 beaker is a miserable penalty compared to +3 raw gold.

 

[Darksaber1]

For the Kurio, getting education pretty early is important, because it takes 110 turns or so to get enclaves, which provide for commerce then towns and provide two food.

 

[Sureshot]

markets net gold not commerce. It is an error to consider gold and beakers modifiers at the same level of commerce ones. A market doesn't yeld the same as a hamlet because in order to produce 3 gold with a hamlet you need to lower your research bar, which will also influence other cities as well. The -1 beaker is a miserable penalty compared to +3 raw gold.

not to mention that you can run a merchant specialist as well, making a market a potential 6 gold and 3 GPP, and a +50% gold modifier is easier to get earlier than a +50% science modifier

education is very nice if you go the cottage/huge empire route (the tech leads to code of laws which also helps), but its no better than mysticism is if you go a great person/small empire route, and both are competitive with each other.

 

[Zechnophobe]

heh, care to show us a screenshot ?

EDIT: Added attached saved game.

To speed things along I've used world builder to create my two starting cities. I accidentally put the crown of akharian in one, so I had my warrior pick it up so nothing looks weird. The game shown is in City states, and is costing 1 a turn. if you switch back to despotism, it'll turn into costing 3 a turn.

Your opinions/strategies are mere opinions/strategies Zechnophobe, but you insist in presenting them as the only possible truth. Also, when you have 6 cities, you should have researched all the second line techs, making the claim that Education is too powerful compared to other early techs void.

Okay, you tell me what value a city with 1000 culture has over a city with 10. Unless they are right next to each other one has, what, 20% greater defense? When you have 6 cities you should have all the second tier techs? What does that have to do with anything. We are talking about whether or not education is a must. Does education GIVE YOU the increase in tech to cause you to be able to research the other techs much faster.

markets net gold not commerce. It is an error to consider gold and beakers modifiers at the same level of commerce ones. A market doesn't yeld the same as a hamlet because in order to produce 3 gold with a hamlet you need to lower your research bar, which will also influence other cities as well. The -1 beaker is a miserable penalty compared to +3 raw gold.

3 commerce is better than three gold, because you can adjust your slider to turn it into whichever you want. Let's say I have 6 commerce from two hamlets, and I have two market places. The GNP here is 10. If I set 100% sci I get 4 science(all from the hamlets, -2 from the markets) and 6 gold (From the markets). If I set it to 50%, I'll get 1 science(3 from hamlets, -2 from markets) and 9(3 from hamlets, +6 from markets) gold. You can't pretend that only the bigger number exists, nor can you make it seem like the % put into a given source is somehow more important than the actual value, especially given that it is Mathematically the opposite case. If my 10 GNP from the above example was all from two towns, then I can have any mix of that be science or markets.

If you are worried about deficit research vs gold acquisition, remember you could, if you were so inclined, get pseudo %'s of 75% on your sliders, by switching back and forth between 70 and 80 every other turn.


This is all math. It's immutable. Your sliders even take into account fractions, so microscopic changes are given full effect (Unlike GPP's, but that's a different argument). You can argue all you want about playstyle, but this has nothing to do with any subjective terms. Cold, Hard, Data.

 

[Ecofarm]

Markets are really good. I like them alot. They are cheap (if you are financial, they are practically free). When I build one in each of my 3-5 cities (I'm a small empire and small army kinda guy), I can generally run 100% tech for the rest of the game (if I want... I'm not saying that is best always) in GodKing.

But they do not compare to being able to build cottages empire-wide. It's not even close except in the most extreme cases of terrain.

 

[Bezhukov]

Agreed that City/States is (way) too strong compared to the alternatives (given the high upkeep costs), although I'll still often research Myst first so I can build my first three settlers in God-King, and my worker(s) is too busy hooking resources/building roads/farms at that point to build cottages. Cottages are for cities who've hit their happy cap.

I'd like to see the Trade tree bypass Education (Festivals instead of Writing?) to add a little spice to things.

BTW, Aristocracy rocks for Calabim (fin/org) under Sacrifice the Weak.

 

[WCH]

BTW, Aristocracy rocks for Calabim (fin/org) under Sacrifice the Weak.

What? No way. Calabim benefit from outrageous food production... Aristocracy means you make less food. Therefore, it's the worst thing for Calabim.

 

[Humakty]

aristocracy + agriculture + sanitation means you can have farms everywhere, producing more food than cottages, and 2(3?) less commerce once developped(financial leader is a must). I've not tested of this strategy, but it might be viable. Sure you'll have a gorgeous food production.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Thematically it is appropriate but as far as mechanics go it s not. I give the Calabim an awesome Royal Guard UU so they will have a reason to use this civic anyway.

 

[Ecofarm]

aristocracy + agriculture + sanitation means you can have farms everywhere, producing more food than cottages, and 2(3?) less commerce once developped(financial leader is a must). I've not tested of this strategy, but it might be viable. Sure you'll have a gorgeous food production.

I saw someone do this in MP, and they were feeding on a 45+ population capital.

But it took a long time to get there...

 

[Pyr0mancer]

I saw someone do this in MP, and they were feeding on a 45+ population capital.

But it took a long time to get there...

Yeah, I've had a 50+ population capital before (SP though), with CoaTS, Tower of Complacency, and lots of floodplains/grassland farms. Plus I was running Caste System and had enough levels of the Altar for 3 + 1 + 1 + some out of every priest. Granted, by that point I'd already won, and was just mopping up, but still, that was one huge city.

 

[Zechnophobe]

The one thing I have to say against that for the calabim, though, is that they don't generally need more than a few 'feeder' cities.

I think You'd see aristocracy a bit more if the overall balance for the government civics was a bit better.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

The one thing I have to say against that for the calabim, though, is that they don't generally need more than a few 'feeder' cities.

Depends on how quickly you need some experienced Vampires available. I don't think I've had a Calabim game above Prince thus far, so I've always been able to make do with just 1 or 2 cities capable of growing 1 pop per turn. I could see a situation where a desperate back-to-the-wall defense might require feeding multiple vampires quickly though.

I think You'd see aristocracy a bit more if the overall balance for the government civics was a bit better.

Agreed. God-King, City-States, and Republic are the only ones I've ever used, and C-S only rarely (more because of my playstyle than any weakness on its part though).

 

[WCH]

God King -> Republic in every single game I've played thus far. Nothing else seems at all worthwhile.

Okay, I used City States once. But I prefer God King's making it possible to actually finish a couple wonders before others get to them.

 

[RogueThunder]

aristocracy + agriculture + sanitation means you can have farms everywhere, producing more food than cottages, and 2(3?) less commerce once developped(financial leader is a must). I've not tested of this strategy, but it might be viable. Sure you'll have a gorgeous food production.

Its quite feasible, and very effective early game... About midgame it falls behind a bit, due to being best with a massive sprawling empire--which practically requires city states... Not to mention that you get more out of doing half your tiles in cottages and half in farms in the long run.
And yes, financial leaders are quite necessary for it to be impressive. It also works particularly well in flood plain starts, as it trades some of your utterly excessive food gets shunted into commerce.

Unfortunately... that's about it. Also, it fails badly on plains. Tho it does give a NICE bonus to rice/wheat/corn.

 

[andrew_yaweb]

I think the benefits of education are cool. I'd comment that Apprenticeship is so 'warlike' is seems unrelated to the principles of education and could go. If not that, the tech should simply costs a bit more research points to get.

 

[Sureshot]

I think the benefits of education are cool. I'd comment that Apprenticeship is so 'warlike' is seems unrelated to the principles of education and could go. If not that, the tech should simply costs a bit more research points to get.

ya, itd really need a significant production penalty for military state to not be an inferior military civic. the idea behind apprenticeship (that of better trained units at the cost of time and effort to produce) seems good but with such a minor penalty with such a high gain it is The military civic in its category. maybe with a -25% or even -50% production penalty for units itd be worth switchin off of. either that or military state needs some xp or something else to make it superior for producing units.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

ya, itd really need a significant production penalty for military state to not be an inferior military civic. the idea behind apprenticeship (that of better trained units at the cost of time and effort to produce) seems good but with such a minor penalty with such a high gain it is The military civic in its category. maybe with a -25% or even -50% production penalty for units itd be worth switchin off of. either that or military state needs some xp or something else to make it superior for producing units.

-50% is far too much, IMO. I think -25% or so sounds about right, given that the 2xp means level 2 instead of 1 units at that stage of the game. That's generally a +20% strength increase, +40% for Aggressive civs that can get Shock right off the bat. -10% is nothing, really, especially once you start putting Temples of the Order/Empyrean or CPs everywhere.

I don't think Military State should be superior at producing units, especially since you can Draft, have higher support, AND get to rush production with gold.

 

[onedreamer]

Okay, you tell me what value a city with 1000 culture has over a city with 10.

Don't really need to tell you anything. It is your opinion that a -20% culture penalty is irrilevant. You are surely entitled to think so, in the same way as I have the opposite opinion, that's all.

When you have 6 cities you should have all the second tier techs? What does that have to do with anything. We are talking about whether or not education is a must.

You keep being OT, that's the problem. We aren't talking of Education being a must, but we are talking of Education being too powerful compared to other techs in the early game. IE we are talking of "Everyone will beeline Education straight away because it will always be the best strategy". You should discuss this and not weather Education is good, City States is good, or if both are must. Certainly Education is a must, so is Agriculture, because without Agriculture, you can't research Education. Pretty funny, don't you think ?

3 commerce is better than three gold

LOL.

 

[Tarquelne]

Re: Apprenticeship

Was the apprenticeship system ever applied to military training historically? So far as the civic goes it seems like a misnomer to me - or just misplaced. The game effect is more like that of a military college, or something like the Spartan "Agoge" training.

I'd expect some sort of commerce or production bonus from "Apprenticeship" helping the civ's craftsmen institutionalize training.

Anyway... perhaps a general production bonus - to reflect the non-military aspects of "Apprenticeship"? I like the idea of a larger military production penalty. IMO -10% is insignificant given the reward - I'd rather run it for military purposes than Military State.