Egypt - ICS strategy

[JohnPorno]

Hello,
after checking on Egypt due to the Emporer Challenge. I wondered why noone is considering them as the strongest ICS civ.
Basically the strategy revolves around their UB the Burial Tomb which gives +2 and +2 however instead of 2 it is maintanence free, the cost are 100 .
So here is the deal.
Piety opener and Religious Center. The opener reduces the UB costs effectivly to 50 and as soon as a city hits the (common I guess) 5 pop/believer treshold it gets +2 happyness again due to Religious Center.
What this building gives you is essentially +4 & +2 for 0 . There is no normal building at that point in the game that can compete with the yield/production ratio except maybe the Papermaker in a 8 pop city.

In regards to ICS it was utterly ridiculous. I got MotG, Asceticism, Pagodas, Religious Center and RT. A city with 5 pop/believer and Meritocracy was producing 8 going equal, for 1 from shrines in maintenance. You will build shrines and the tomb in every city you found, which again snowballs faith for pagodas, which gives more faith and more happyness etc. It goes crazy.
As you can see in my 1st screenshot at T200 I have an average of 4,84 pop with 19 cities, sitting at +25 without building even one colloseum. I didnt have any space to settle anymore, so I started growing (in hindsight I should have started taken AI's lands).

The second screenshot at T300 I have an average of 12 pop in 19 cities, +12 happyness (- 4 from imported citrus for faster growth via Kingday) and still not one colloseum constructed.

What the combination of these policies, beliefs essentially does it lets you build a tall ICS since it makes normal buildings completly redundant. I went for science victory and should have won around 370-375 sadly I had a CTD. My average city size was ~14 with the the tundra and ice cities dragging it down. roughly 15 cities were above 17 pop, cap at 25.
I got 2 wonders early: Machu Picchu, which I bulbed with Liberty GE and Forbidden Palace which I hardbuild after beelining for it.

Since Im a King player, I would really be curious how this strategy would work in higher difficulties. I assume you would have more trouble simply due to the religion race.
I used the search function and while people suggested Egypt noone suggested my pietyopener, burial tomb, religious center combination.
So, any thoughts on this?

 

[Moriarte]

This was discussed at length before (i think you can search for ICS threads if you're interested) and most people confirmed that Maya, Arabia and Egypt are all good for this type of play.

Honestly, i really doubt this method will survive the ultimate test. While you concentrate on the shiny stuff, your weak spot is science. I had few games on highest setting, where reaching 800 science per turn on turn 200 (with 15 cities, on a side note) was just enough for me to keep up with runaway Hiawatha/Alexander/Sejong. So, while having a good religion is luxurious, it is a rare pleasure at high levels.

 

[lolzipepz]

Since Im a King player, I would really be curious how this strategy would work in higher difficulties. I assume you would have more trouble simply due to the religion race.

The religious race isn't the only problem, you also need to tech much harder since the Deity AI will win long before turn 380, and you have to focus more on maintaining a strong army throughout the game which will further delay certain techs. Keep in mind that tall empires will finish science victories in around 250 turns (closer to 200 with a good / lucky game), and if you go far past that the AI may just snag a win if you don't put pressure on it.

While it's certainly possible to win a tech war going ICS on Deity, the strategy is more suited to a domination game, since you can then take full advantage of your production, you get more space to expand, and the puppets won't cost you too much happiness.

Early faith is a problem as you said, but also keep in mind that Burial tombs are also a long way off if you have aggressive Deity neighbors, so your early expansion may be somewhat slow.

That said, I find Egypt to be quite strong for ICS, it's just that the first few turns are so crucial and they have no advantages there. If you manage to get a good start nonetheless there are few civs who can match them.

 

[OwlRaider]

"I went for science victory and should have won around 370-375", this is your biggest problem right there. Most Immortal and Deity games never reach the 370th turn, if you didn't win by than 1 of the AI civs usually does, unless you've beat them all up and are just prolonging the game for no apparent reason. Also ICSing in general is much weaker at Immortal and Deity since the AI will spawn huge armies and war you even more than it does against tall empires, since they'll covet your land, think you're expanding too aggressively, etc. With that said, ICS can still work of course, it's just much harder and very map dependent, as a lot of AI civs love to expand like crazy if only they have room, and the AI will expand faster than you due to it starting with 1 worker(Immortal) or 2(Deity) and of course the lack of happiness limitations the AI enjoys. So on most maps you'll simply not have enough room to expand like crazy for an ICS strategy, which is why most wide strategies rely on taking cities from the AI rather than settling them yourself, which in turn favors tradition to liberty as you won't be building a lot of settlers yourself, you'll either purchase them with gold or use the AI's cities.

With all that said, Egypt is still a fine choice for a wide empire. Regardless of the map and how you become wide, Egypt has 1 important aspect going for it, its UU. Their UU allows you to skip Construction early on and still be aggressive, and with a single Horseman to capture cities your army will be much faster too since it'll all be mounted, that is until you spawn a great general since he'll slow you down since he's moving at dismounted speed despite being mounted visually. Also your UA+the tradition wonder bonus makes for some very fast wonders and once you get your 4th tradition policy up and running you can start snatching wonders with relative safety. Of course the early ones like GL, Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, etc are probably out but Petra(if desert start), Machu Pichu, Chichen Itza, Hagia Sophia, etc and of course everything more modern will be much more possible than it is for other civs without Egypt's UA. With that said, you won't be able to get all of them, so choose carefully and beeline to the wonders you want than build them and forget the rest.

 

[JohnPorno]

Early faith is a problem as you said, but also keep in mind that Burial tombs are also a long way off if you have aggressive Deity neighbors, so your early expansion may be somewhat slow.

This is my biggest question. With Pietyopener shrine& tomb take less time to build than a circus. However providing 2 and 4 or do you simply not build these buildings at that level?

That said, I find Egypt to be quite strong for ICS, it's just that the first few turns are so crucial and they have no advantages there. If you manage to get a good start nonetheless there are few civs who can match them.

I disagree their UU is really benefical for this kind of strategy like OwlRaider said. That being said I dont think I had problems on the military side I even hit the unit treshold.

Honestly, i really doubt this method will survive the ultimate test. While you concentrate on the shiny stuff, your weak spot is science. I had few games on highest setting, where reaching 800 science per turn on turn 200 (with 15 cities, on a side note) was just enough for me to keep up with runaway Hiawatha/Alexander/Sejong. So, while having a good religion is luxurious, it is a rare pleasure at high levels.

"I went for science victory and should have won around 370-375", this is your biggest problem right there. Most Immortal and Deity games never reach the 370th turn, if you didn't win by than 1 of the AI civs usually does, unless you've beat them all up and are just prolonging the game for no apparent reason.

Yeah I knew that this is way to late for higher difficulties, I just wanted to end the game since it was already over. I just missed the timeframe to expand into AI territory and laid lazyly back. If I would have went for domination Im sure the game would have been over way earlier.

 

[Kazdum]

I tried it, you can make it work. In fact, its quite amazing. But... your science will be down bellow the ground for quite some time if not for the entire game, thats the problem ;/

 

[lolzipepz]

This is my biggest question. With Pietyopener shrine& tomb take less time to build than a circus. However providing 2 and 4 or do you simply not build these buildings at that level?

I'm saying that by the time you have the tech to start building tombs, a significant portion of the game may already have passed (especially if you were forced to get Composite Bowmen). Happiness is more of an issue in the early stages in the game, where plopping down your core cities quickly is important.

With civs like Maya or Ethiopia, they get their unique buildings much earlier and they're not forced to rush Philosophy, so they're better set up to get a good early game. They're a lot more flexible as well with their techs, allowing them to get Composite Bows early-ish without sacrificing too much for it (as opposed to Egypt which loses a lot from not rushing Philosophy).

I disagree their UU is really benefical for this kind of strategy like OwlRaider said. That being said I dont think I had problems on the military side I even hit the unit treshold.

You were playing on King, right? The AI has a next to non-existing military at that difficulty level. At Deity they will often rush you early on with pretty significant armies so you need to prepare better.

You can certainly survive a rush, it just delays your actual goal somewhat. And yes, their chariot can be useful for that purpose, though they lack the amazing upgrade path of archers.

 

[Vintage Port]

I tried it, you can make it work. In fact, its quite amazing. But... your science will be down bellow the ground for quite some time if not for the entire game, thats the problem ;/

Science will definitely lag, especially taking Piety. I understand what the OP is saying but if you are taking Piety then a science victory is not happening (well not in any realistic time frame). Maybe someone could make domination ICS strategy work a bit better with Piety - for the extra happiness and building tombs quicker as you ICS??? I've never tried it. Happiness can be a problem in domination games so this could be an option? But then maybe a few points in honor might better? hmm.

No doubt the burial tomb is amazing. Especially if you take the extra +2 from religion for temples. I won my first Immortal attempt using Egypt in IC5 - they are a powerful Civ. They let you compete and possibly get some of the key wonders on the higher levels, their chariot archers are fantastic for early neighbor rushes and the burial tomb is very nice for extra happiness.

Egypt is definitely a versatile Civ but Piety and science victory don't mix all that well.

 

[tommynt]

egypt is a very good all around civ, together with france maya and huns proly the best mp civ (thats were all round matters most) But it just lacks the speed start of maya and bab to go for superfast science win.

But if u just want play and win (and do some wonderspaming) in a reasonable timeframe egypt is great

 

[budweiser]

The way it looks now, I'd say you can take 2-4 capitals each and every time as Egypt by 1AD even up to an including Immortal. Whats to keep you from stopping at that point and going wide science?

 

[Vintage Port]

The way it looks now, I'd say you can take 2-4 capitals each and every time as Egypt by 1AD even up to an including Immortal. Whats to keep you from stopping at that point and going wide science?

Nothing really and is probably fairly effective having all those extra capitals early.

I was just referring to the OP who talked about taking Piety and going wide for science and then found he was at turn 370 and still hadn't won.

 

[JohnPorno]

Nothing really and is probably fairly effective having all those extra capitals early.

I was just referring to the OP who talked about taking Piety and going wide for science and then found he was at turn 370 and still hadn't won.

I didnt. I just wanted to test how viable my attempt could be at King. At some point I got the conclusion that it would definitely work. However as I said, I should have went for Domination. I did a SV simply because at the point I realized that the game was over it was the fastest route to victory. I reloaded the game today and won at 356 actually, not that it matters.
Earlier Domination would have worked faster indeed.

 

[Kazdum]

Hello,
after checking on Egypt due to the Emporer Challenge. I wondered why noone is considering them as the strongest ICS civ.
Basically the strategy revolves around their UB the Burial Tomb which gives +2 and +2 however instead of 2 it is maintanence free, the cost are 100 .
So here is the deal.
Piety opener and Religious Center. The opener reduces the UB costs effectivly to 50 and as soon as a city hits the (common I guess) 5 pop/believer treshold it gets +2 happyness again due to Religious Center.
What this building gives you is essentially +4 & +2 for 0 . There is no normal building at that point in the game that can compete with the yield/production ratio except maybe the Papermaker in a 8 pop city.

In regards to ICS it was utterly ridiculous. I got MotG, Asceticism, Pagodas, Religious Center and RT. A city with 5 pop/believer and Meritocracy was producing 8 going equal, for 1 from shrines in maintenance. You will build shrines and the tomb in every city you found, which again snowballs faith for pagodas, which gives more faith and more happyness etc. It goes crazy.
As you can see in my 1st screenshot at T200 I have an average of 4,84 pop with 19 cities, sitting at +25 without building even one colloseum. I didnt have any space to settle anymore, so I started growing (in hindsight I should have started taken AI's lands).

The second screenshot at T300 I have an average of 12 pop in 19 cities, +12 happyness (- 4 from imported citrus for faster growth via Kingday) and still not one colloseum constructed.

What the combination of these policies, beliefs essentially does it lets you build a tall ICS since it makes normal buildings completly redundant. I went for science victory and should have won around 370-375 sadly I had a CTD. My average city size was ~14 with the the tundra and ice cities dragging it down. roughly 15 cities were above 17 pop, cap at 25.
I got 2 wonders early: Machu Picchu, which I bulbed with Liberty GE and Forbidden Palace which I hardbuild after beelining for it.

Since Im a King player, I would really be curious how this strategy would work in higher difficulties. I assume you would have more trouble simply due to the religion race.
I used the search function and while people suggested Egypt noone suggested my pietyopener, burial tomb, religious center combination.
So, any thoughts on this?

John, I read that you are a king player, well I am playing immortal myself, but I wanted to ask you, what you think if we open up a challange on emperor using Egypt as ICS? Maybe we can take the same save and try it out and see how things turn out.

If someone else is interested we could add more people as well.

 

[Deau]

This was discussed at length before (i think you can search for ICS threads if you're interested) and most people confirmed that Maya, Arabia and Egypt are all good for this type of play.

Honestly, i really doubt this method will survive the ultimate test. While you concentrate on the shiny stuff, your weak spot is science. I had few games on highest setting, where reaching 800 science per turn on turn 200 (with 15 cities, on a side note) was just enough for me to keep up with runaway Hiawatha/Alexander/Sejong. So, while having a good religion is luxurious, it is a rare pleasure at high levels.

Not only that, but I've had many deity games where I would be beat to the 5th religion unless I lucked out early faith CSs for a faith-generating pantheon. Let alone getting valuable beliefs for ICS.

With that said, I'm sure it's still a strong strategy all the way to and including Immortal. ICS is rough on deity just because of the double settler start of AIs. I think the 169 BPT on turn 200 is mostly a lack of experience and micromanagement more than a strategy failure.

It could be interesting to test, even on deity, on a map larger than it's standard civ count (or with fewer civs than standard map setting). See if the ICS strat can keep up. I would guess it is doable with that +2 bpt per connected city with aggressive road building in the early game.

 

[Deau]

John, I read that you are a king player, well I am playing immortal myself, but I wanted to ask you, what you think if we open up a challange on emperor using Egypt as ICS? Maybe we can take the same save and try it out and see how things turn out.

If someone else is interested we could add more people as well.

I'm usually a stubborn deity player but ICS is a strategy I am not comfortable with and would enjoy to join a challenge, given the start is somewhat suitable to ICS (aka no tundra start with 2 neighbors within 7-9 tiles as this just begs for early rush, not typical ICS).

 

[JohnPorno]

John, I read that you are a king player, well I am playing immortal myself, but I wanted to ask you, what you think if we open up a challange on emperor using Egypt as ICS? Maybe we can take the same save and try it out and see how things turn out.

If someone else is interested we could add more people as well.

Im in. Though there is an emporer challenge with Egypt atm, which made my look into Egypt in the 1st place.

 

[kirbdog]

I didnt. I just wanted to test how viable my attempt could be at King.

Lots of things are viable on King.

You could make it fun by going piety, building only chariot archers (that you never upgrade or replace), and never employing scientists because you don't trust them.

 

[Kazdum]

Im in. Though there is an emporer challenge with Egypt atm, which made my look into Egypt in the 1st place.

Shall we use that map then and see how it goes? We can discuss and post the results there.

 

[T-hawk]

Egypt's problem with the UB is that temples are extremely weak to start with. 100 hammers for 2 piety/turn (and -2 gold) is a terrible investment. The Burial Tomb makes the 100 hammers give 2 happy -- which already exists, it's called a colosseum, and isn't very efficient either.

Temples are only decent with two policies into Piety, making them 50 hammers for 3 faith, still not great but at least palatable. But ICS only points towards science as a win condition. You can't do culture, conquest doesn't need ICS and can't afford a happy drain, and diplomacy is just science in disguise. So an ICSing Egypt wants Rationalism not Piety. The various bonuses in Rationalism add up to much more science than the 2 happy will give.

In short: ICS means science victory and Rationalism, but temple UBs stink without Piety.

 

[lolzipepz]

^Temple UB's don't "stink" without Piety, in the case of Burial Tomb they're still one of the absolute best buys per hammer for ICS if you're actually in the religion race.

The solution to your "problem" is not making the bad strategic choice of investing into Piety for an ICS attempt. Why are you pitting Burial Tombs against Colosseum when you can have both?