E'iten background

[Valkrionn]

Going to use this thread to steadily leak/discuss what E'iten is going to be. For now, let me go over a few core points:

1. E'iten will be made for Civ5: Gods and Kings.
2. E'iten is a world recovering from a cataclysmic eruption, taking place over several centuries; a small scale flood basalt (like the one that formed the Deccan plateau in India). It was more severe than any flood basalt event in our own history, but was also on a shorter scale; Sufficient to push human life to the brink of extinction and force the emergence of new cultures.
3. We will be leveraging the Civ5 religion system; About all I can say there is that it fits our designs for a "customizable religion".
4. Policies will be revamped into a new form of "tech tree"; In short, all Unique Abilities/Mechanics/Units/Buildings/Etc will come from these techs. All civilizations will have access to them, though opening a new tree will be expensive; Best to continue down the one your civ begins with, at least at first.
5. There will be a 'basic' tech tree, but it will be highly linear and mostly made up of "essential" items; IE, open borders, research agreements, etc. Things that should be available to all civs.
6. There will be magic, but it will not work as in FfH; Rather than one magic system with many spheres, we will have six seperate forms of magic, each of which is highly focused.
7. There are no standard fantasy races; Only humans. In the same way, there are no gods/angels/demons, nor is the main conflict good vs evil. We wanted to distance ourselves from FfH.

Now, for some new info... How the magic system will actually work.

Intelligence relies on quantum functions; the actual structure of space-time is manipulated at a sub-conscious level, and this structure is where everything that makes an individual themselves is stored. A few rare individuals are able to manipulate space-time on a conscious level, to change the flow of energy; This is the source of magic.

Given it's nature (manipulation of energy, not creation of energy), magic use requires an energy source. Casters are able to use their own energy stores, but these are limited; Past that, energy must come from the environment. It is this principle that forms the core of all conflicts in E'iten, much as a civ's allegiance to a group of gods does in FfH.


Without going into too much more detail: Magic requires energy. This energy is able to come from the caster, to a limited extent; Beyond that, it must come from the environment (the plot). Each plot is able to store a set amount of energy (~3x that of a unit), but it's energy regenerates extremely slowly, rather than once per turn. Use of environmental energy can degrade the plot; Use all of it and the plot becomes barren, unable to provide any yield or regenerate energy on it's own. However, failing to make use of environmental energy has a bad side as well. Namely, the buildup of too much energy causes disasters of various kinds. In fact, it was this buildup that caused the flood basalt event. Disasters can happen in and of themselves (natural buildup of energy, which is capable of occuring in isolated spikes before spreading itself out to neighboring plots) or by the actions of players; Not only can you drain the energy of a plot (thereby sabotaging an enemy), you can transfer the energy to a plot, repairing past damage or helping to cause a disaster.

It is the balance between destroying the environment and permitting natural disasters that makes up the conflict between the three main factions. The six forms of magic we are implementing each belong to one faction; "Tree-huggers", "Neutral", "Disaster-preventers". Obviously, those names are very much temporary.

• Tree-huggers - Never drain energy from the environment, it is the source of life - Shamanism + Elementalism
• Neutral - Doesn't adhere to either ideology - Runic Magic + Evokers
• Disaster-preventers - Drain as much energy as possible, to prevent future disaster - Ritualists + Magitech

We'll go into more detail about how each type of magic works later, but for now, the names alone will do.

Just like FfH, we have three factions. However, ours are not based on "Good" or "Evil"; Both extremes have perfectly valid reasons for what they do, and if anything, "Neutral" is the most good; they do not blindly follow dogma.​

That should be about it for now. I'll answer questions (selectively, of course ), but the main reason for the post is this: We need names for the factions. It's rather difficult to come up with fitting names that don't carry negative connotations; For example, Symbiote was suggested for the "environmentalist" faction, but that name would imply that the "disaster preventers" are parasites, which is rather negative. Makes things difficult.

So if you can think of any names for these factions, please feel free to post them. If we can use them we will.

 

[GASherbert]

I think Symbiote would be fine, despite the implications, so long as the "Disaster-preventers" get a suitable name as well. Opposing factions should be trying to paint themselves in a positive light, while simultaneously sniping at their opposition. It's all about the propaganda.

 

[Valkrionn]

That's a reasonable point, but given the current environmental awareness furor, I feel we have to go to extra lengths to present that faction in a good light. It's a pain keeping them from seeming evil. Ritualism, for example, is "necro-shamanism"; structurally identical to shamanism (only two magics with that tie), but deals direct damage rather than buffs. For obvious reasons, "necro-shamanism" didn't work as a name. Having to also distance it a bit from shamanism (no "when shamans go bad" flavor), as that would imply they "fell" to something evil.

Honestly, I like Symbiote. It fits what they do very well; it just makes the other side look bad. Only way it works would be if they had a similar name, one that made the tree-huggers look bad.

 

[Tschuggi]

Very interesting concept. Me likey I might give ciV another try, if you come up with the finished mod.

Suggestions:

1. Shamanism + Elementalism: The Symbiotes (Lichen, some form of symbios between alga and fungus, was my first idea, but it sounds so nasty)
2. Runic Magic + Evokers: The Charmers
3. Ritualists + Magitech: The Spiritualists

But I really don't like my suggestions. I will contemplate about it over easter... happy holidays to all of you.

Greez,

Tschuggi

 

[Calavente]

well, If I understood correctly they are all symbiotes.
-commentalists symbiotes for the first one (they do not help the bigger one, only live from the crumbs : they do not harvest energy, only use what is freely dispersed through disasters, hot water sources, storms...etc
-mutualists symbiotes (aka the clown fish and the anemone, or human with some bacteria) : both gain a benefit from the other.
-parasitic symbiotes : they exploit the host and don't care about its end.

so a way to express it otherwise :
-the Witnesses: "observe where energy is liberated, then you can use it", "we are witnesses of the power of nature, it is not our call to interfer with it's fury." "What? a flood? Don't try to control nature, adapt to it, but be assured, if you fail, we will be witnesses of your efforts."
-The Gardeners/the Tinkerer: "We use what is provided, we trim what is dangerous, we improve what is worthwhile, we help when needed, we help ourselves when it isn't too damaging". They tinker with the energy, taking a bit, adding a bit, but they'll never kill the chicken that lay golden eggs.
-The Humanists : There is nothing more dangerous for life and Humanity than Nature un-chained. A natural disaster prevented is worth any kind of sacrifice.

on a less positive tone for each:
-the Manipulators : they only manipulate what exists, they don't create, they never help others,they let you think they care, but their care is only for the fury of nature. They said to you that they love nature? In fact they love the power left in the wake of nature's fury. They are schysophrenic. ON one hand they say they love nature, it's charming glades, nice forests... but when they want power they are only interested in the heat of desert, the frost of snowfall and the power of avalanches".
-the Husbanders : they take care of nature, but only in order to ensure a future production ; the wellness of nature is not taken into account by itself. They neither care of man nor of nature. Neither fish nor fowl, they are tepid, half hearted in all things. Some will say that people are not loved in their land, they suffer rain in the day and frost and sunburns as many times they come after nature. Other will say that the land is tamed, briddled, her well-being is not taken into account, where are the wilds ?
-the Tamers/The Milkers: they only consider that they have to tame nature, or at least gather all energy they can at any time :"you don't know how tomorrow will be"; "1 now is better than 2 tomorrow"...etc they'd rather fully milk the cow now and have no thoughts about the calve. They'd kill the wolf and the fox... and wonder while the rabbits and wildpig destroyed the fields.

A last one:
-The Stormriders : they use the natural energy liberated by the strong reaction of nature, you will never find them in a calm grove, but they will congregates around waterfalls, storms, volcanoes, typhoons, floods and avalanches, trying to ride the energy liberated. Some respect them for the courage they need to always face the fury of nature, other fear them... when they flock around you, you are sure a disaster will arise.
-The Balance/the Force/The Jedi... : you can take, but within limits, you can add, within limits, you can mix, you improve on, you smoothen, but beware of the extrem, we are needed to help nature control herself, but if you go too far, nature will die.
-The Protectors: Nature is cruel, Nature is crazy, we have to rein it.

Last, I just thought about a french Sci-Fi book (french autor MAthieu Gaborit)
there are many sources of magic.however one of the sources are little "feys" : the dancers.
3 schools are used to generate magic from the dancers, and these are much like your 3 groups

Spoiler :

The Jornistes : in symbiosis with the fey, they befriend it so the dancer know what is needed and they dance, liberating energy. (such as a master that befriend the dog, considering it as another human). In response to that love the dog do little tricks to please the human, it brings kills.... and sometimes do the unexpected, when you need it most.
The Eclipse : the fey is a tool, the eclipsist make himself known from the dancer and then manipulate the dancer, they initiates the dances and control every step and variation of it. (such as a master that train a dog to do things).(the dog will do the things but never improve on them unless trained to do the improved version).
The Obscurantist : They "break" the dancers, they torture them, chaining them, with supplices dances.. their suffering creating magic, and in extrem cases they even kill the dancers.. They create an adoration in the dancer of the kind seen in cases of stockholm syndrom. (or you can consider act as a master that train a dog by showing super domination, by being just as cruel as needed to train the dog to be aggressive with regard to others and dominated with regard to the master)

EDIT: Disclaimer : it seems obvious but I'll still state it: I claim no monoply on the names, nor do I think the names could not be used separatly.. and/or independantly, with other factions names coming from other lists, mine or others, or even for describing another faction than the one I first intended it to describe.

 

[Valkrionn]

The first set of names actually works fairly well Calavente. May use those.

 

[Calavente]

if you take "the jedi"... beware of lucasart's copyright team

 

[Lplate]

It's terrible to start reading a thread and think this is interesting, I can contribute a couple of ideas to this and then reach the sixth post and discover someone has already made your suggestions (plus a few extra ones) and phrased it more evocatively than you were going to.

I would tweak the name of the Humanists to Pro-Human Faction. In their propaganda, anyone who believes in an alternative approach is Anti-Human.

 

[Jheral]

That's kind of always the problem of labels like this - they're either going to make it just a different shade of "good vs evil" or bring in terms that break immersion because they don't fit the setting. You usually just end up with either something that's way too modern, like Pro-nature or environmentalists or something, or skewing the perspective too much, because there's no real way to be value neutral on both ends.

Which isn't that surprising, really, since what these three factions come down to in the end is "Pro-Nature", "Pro-Human" or "Anti-Nature", in some ways at least. Though I guess you could go with Preservers (protecting the natural order of things), Preventers (controlling the energies of nature to ensure stability, at the cost of biodiversity) and Progressives (utilizing both sides in order to achieve a balance that is both sustainable and safe).

...though I guess I could have done better without the alliteration.

Either way, I don't see that names are what is important at this stage in the development cycle. Names can - and should, really - change as the concept evolves, not determine the course of that evolution.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sure. But names are rather important ad markers for discussion; the placeholders we have are rather wonky.

 

[Valkrionn]

Going to go with Preservers, Pragmatists, and Preventers for now. Likely just working titles, but they'll work.

 

[Adante]

Valkrionn,

As a long time fan and supporter of FFH2, FF, and RifE I have also become very interested in this new project of yours. I would like to contact you in someway to offer my services and abilities with this project.

 

[Valkrionn]

Anyone have requests for more information? Who knows, your question may be the spark that fleshes out a new area of the mod.

...Okay, so I'm extremely bored at work.

In other news: Likely to have a patch for RifE out tomorrow. Some further AI work from Snarko, and the capture animal bug fixed.

 

[Lplate]

Use of environmental energy can degrade the plot; Use all of it and the plot becomes barren, unable to provide any yield or regenerate energy on it's own.

Hi,

Can the terrain graphics be changed during a game now or do you need Firaxis to release more info to allow development of this?

 

[Adante]

I do have a few questions.

Starting with the civs; you have said there will be no fantasy races, yes, however will there still be a racial type "promotion" between the different human civs? I.e. "race x promotion" that gives double movement in hills, etc.
Another point to that, can you give us any information as to the currently planned number of civs and how you will make them unique? You mentioned different ways magic is used, can you elaborate on that any?


Also, as my previous post seems to have been ignored, I have worked on a few mods previously and, as something of a fan of your work on Rise from Erebus, I would like to offer my talents. If you are flatly uninterested don't be squeamish about saying so.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hi,

Can the terrain graphics be changed during a game now or do you need Firaxis to release more info to allow development of this?

You know, I'm not sure. Our original mod idea, Eden (which was shelved due to rather... Extreme, art requirements) was actually going to have day/night and season cycles. The Civ5 team told us this would be possible; I'd assume terrain graphics will be too then.

I do have a few questions.

Starting with the civs; you have said there will be no fantasy races, yes, however will there still be a racial type "promotion" between the different human civs? I.e. "race x promotion" that gives double movement in hills, etc.
Another point to that, can you give us any information as to the currently planned number of civs and how you will make them unique? You mentioned different ways magic is used, can you elaborate on that any?


Also, as my previous post seems to have been ignored, I have worked on a few mods previously and, as something of a fan of your work on Rise from Erebus, I would like to offer my talents. If you are flatly uninterested don't be squeamish about saying so.

No, there won't be any racial promotions. Different 'races' will have a unique look to them (just as ours do, though again, not in the same way), but they aren't differentiated enough for different stats. Some civs will even have multiple racial types.

Should be about 8-10 civs. Any more than that and you run into conflicts; one reason I'm tired of FfH is the sheer number of civs and the impossibility of making them all play uniquely and keeping things balanced. There are only so many good mechanics to go around, afterall. The civs in E'iten are not really unique though; they will have a backstory and unique leaders, but utterly lack UU/UB/UMs. All of that will come through the new policy trees. In this way, we can allow civs to adapt and play differently based on circumstance. Each civ will start with access to one 'cultural' policy tree, which is their 'default' playstyle; you can open a new one at any time, but doing so makes all policies cost more, we don't want one civ gaining access to more than three or so of these trees.

As for your offer: at the moment, several of us are actually on the Civ5 beta team, and have played the expansion. Some of our plans rely on this advance knowledge, and since there is an nda involved we can't easily allow more people into the project at this time.

..........And all I'll say is I'm quite fond of the religion system. It will be used in E'iten without modification (other than making it affect new mechanics like magic), simply content changes.

 

[Hankc]

Are you planing to use the new espionage system as well?

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes, though that one may involve more changes; It's designed for an industrial era, which isn't something we will have.

 

[Adante]

Some civs will even have multiple racial types.

Can you elaborate on this some? I thought the racial promotions in FFH were a pretty neat feature that added a great deal of differentiation, but I'm excited to know more about how E'iten will mix things up.

one reason I'm tired of FfH is the sheer number of civs and the impossibility of making them all play uniquely and keeping things balanced.

I agree completely. Even in just the vanilla FFH2 I felt like there could have been one or two less civs. While all unique lore wise, a few of them ended up playing exactly the same so I'm glad to see you and your team getting into your own new setting.

The civs in E'iten are not really unique though; they will have a backstory and unique leaders, but utterly lack UU/UB/UMs. All of that will come through the new policy trees.

Sorry, UU/UB/UMs? I am somewhat new to the Civ modding world. Does that mean Unique Units/buildings/mmmmonorails? Also, can you tell us a bit more about the policy trees? Presumably you'll have your run of the mill "this tree is for military" "this tree is for economy" things taking place but what other unique trees can you divulge at this time?

As for your offer: at the moment, several of us are actually on the Civ5 beta team, and have played the expansion. Some of our plans rely on this advance knowledge, and since there is an nda involved we can't easily allow more people into the project at this time.

I actually have not worked on a mod for civ before. In the mods I have previously worked for I have had the great pleasure of being in somewhat of a number crunching game balancing sort of position, in addition to being tasked with finding bugs. However the work I am most proud of in the past has been that of my voice acting. It probably isn't a high priority in a game such as this but some of my fondest memories come from hearing Leonard Nemoy reading a quote after discovering a tech or even the unique languages each of the units have and the little lines they say when you click on them.
So as I said, it is rarely something to put much time into coding and increasing the file sizes for a game of this type, but the offer is there should you ever need someone of my talents. If not, no worries.

 

[Valkrionn]

By "racial types" I mean there could be a civ where units can be either black, asian, white, etc. That said, those racial types likely won't exist in E'iten.

As for policy trees, we actually DON"T have one for military/economy/etc. Each tree encompasses a different way to play the game. UM means Unique Mechanic; This is the core point of the policy tree. For example, there is one tree, "Tribal", which reduces the plot radius of your cities but allows you to A)Build improvements over features, and B)Pack cities up and move them to new locations.