Elohims should be "Spiritual" rather than the current implementation of "Tolerant"

[Jules.lt]

I see "Tolerant" as it is currently implemented as a warmonger's trait: it only does something if you go and conquer enemies.
Then it creates some weird situations where you can get 2 palaces, some of the units you can build are only semi-functional (e.g. vampires that cannot feast) and you get lots of inconsistencies overall...

The Elohim are a builder civ meant to go primarily for the Altar victory, or at least build some levels of it. Many things are geared towards this:
Their worldspell, their Hero's special ability, their Monk unique unit, their unique buildings, their Defender trait...

So why should a civ geared so much towards builders get this warmonger's version of the "Tolerant" trait?
Furthermore, why don't they get "Spiritual", which would fit them so perfectly both for mechanic and flavour?

Let's see what you think...

Edit: I'll add that the current "Tolerant" is amazingly powerful if well used by a human player, and totally useless in the hands of an AI.

My answer to the "Tolerant is flavourful to them" objection:

If the Elohim had to go to war, they might respect the culture of the conquered people, but would they really train troops in an unassimilated culture? The loyalty of these troops would be highly questionable, and their behaviour would probably often go contrary to the most important Elohim values. Elohims might be tolerant and peaceful, but they're not weak when it comes to protecting their values.

A tolerant trait that is not for warmongers would for example be "does not get the close borders diplomacy penalty". That reflects the fact that Elohim people will not have border clashes like other cultures, and fits well with the "live and let live" play style. It even makes it easier to get cities by culture flip.
That's not what I'm pushing for, but it shows that there are countless ways to implement a flavour, including some that have flavourful mechanics and go well with the rest of the civ's mechanics...

The current implementation is less "Tolerant" than "Melting Pot Culture", which flavour-wise fits the Kurios and Grigori better as has been pointed out by several people (which does not mean that they should get this trait...)

 

[Fejijar]

What about culture-flipping?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Elohim should lose tolerant and gain spiritual, yes. tolerant should be given to Decius

 

[Senethro]

I'd rather Ethne lost creative and gained Spiritual. Creative is a really boring trait in the context of FFH.

 

[MasterofDisasta]

I think tolerant fits them well lorewise, even if it does encourage warmongering from the player. However, I don't think its a good idea to remove a mechanic that is both fun and flavorful just because it encourages an anti-lore playstyle. Now if warmongering was the only effectice Elohim tactic, there would be a problem. However, as it currently stands the Elohim don't need to be aggresive to be a competitive civ and win an altar victory, creative victory, or religious victory.

Nothing says that you have to adopt the most advantageous strategy if you would prefer to pursue a more flavorful one. Its hard enough to balance a game with wildly different factions, and it would be even more difficult if the best tactic always had to be the most flavorful one. Other anti-lore strategies are similarly beneficial such as order sheaim.

Its not like warmongering is the only way to use the trait; someone is bound to declare war on you at some point through the game and culture flipping was already mentioned. I think tolerant for Elohim is alright because it may make an anti-lore strategy attractive but it in no way makes that the only beneficial strategy.

 

[Jules.lt]

I think tolerant fits them well lorewise, even if it does encourage warmongering from the player.

Well it's not Tolerance that is wrong with them, it's the current implementation of the tolerant trait...

If you called this warmonger trait something else, and gave Elohim a "Tolerant" trait that fits them mechanic-wise it would be ok too...

 

[KillerClowns]

Tolerant as an Elohim civ trait, not a leader trait. Replace Ethne's Creative with Spiritual.
EDIT: Funnily enough, FF does a lot of what you're suggesting. Decius gets Conquerer (a renamed "tolerant") and the Elohim are practically a whole different civ.

 

[Iceciro]

Jules, sounds like you've been playing Fall Further, where Tolerant -> Conqeror and is handed to Decius.

 

[Jules.lt]

Never played it, but I like the sound of many of the ideas that they implemented.
Didn't know about this one, though (or maybe I forgot about it and it came back from my subconscious )

 

[Rystic]

Tolerant should be given to the Grigori, if anyone.

 

[OnmyojiOmn]

I agree that Tolerant is an odd choice for a builder civ, but flavor aside, Spiritual is even more of a warmongering trait. I say swap the traits as you suggest, but move the anarchy elimination to a different trait and have Spiritual do something else. Spiritual should lend itself to divine units/strats in the same sense that Summoner and Arcane help with magic strats.

 

[MasterofDisasta]

Well it's not Tolerance that is wrong with them, it's the current implementation of the tolerant trait...

If you called this warmonger trait something else, and gave Elohim a "Tolerant" trait that fits them mechanic-wise it would be ok too...

What I meant was that the trait's mechanics seem pretty lore appopriate. If the Elohim were to be forced into war (and in a place like Erebus they definitely will be at some point) they would be compassionate to the civilian populace of the defeated civ and would integrate them into their society. This is well represented by the mechanics of the tolerant trait.

The problem, however, is what these mechanics encourage: warmongering to gain the ability to build many different UU's and UB's. However, I argue that in a complex strategy game like FFH, the lore appropriate strategy doesn't have to be the only appropriate strategy, it just has to be one of the appropriate strategies. In this way, the current incarnation of the tolerant trait works because it still leaves peaceful victories a very effective strategy for the Elohim.

Plus, I think the Elohim could use a fun mechanic since they otherwise don't really have one. Tolerant doesn't require complete warmongering to benefit from, only a few captures of other civ's cities (including barbs). Anyways, it is most useful for the first few wars anyways since you can only have one or two extra palaces.

 

[mahazel]

Tolerant should be given to the Grigori, if anyone.

Tolerant should be Cardith trait, it fit him the best.

 

[Earthling]

Elohim should lose tolerant and gain spiritual, yes. tolerant should be given to Decius

Dang, I realized all too late I voted wrong. I full-heartedly support this proposal so much (out of hate for Decius as he is now - no more Raiders for him would be sweet!) Or in general tolerant could be changed a little for the Elohim to not be so warmongering.

However, I do have one question from something I read elsewhere, maybe the person was wrong though. Can't the Elohim become spiritual from one of the Unique Features, like how Auric becomes Aggressive? Is this only in FF maybe?

Edit at the above: Cardith would never be able to use the trait...he only has a few cities that can produce things. So in fact it's better to vassalize than conquer cities that turn to settlements.

 

[Rystic]

I agree that Tolerant is an odd choice for a builder civ, but flavor aside, Spiritual is even more of a warmongering trait. I say swap the traits as you suggest, but move the anarchy elimination to a different trait and have Spiritual do something else. Spiritual should lend itself to divine units/strats in the same sense that Summoner and Arcane help with magic strats.

I disagree. Tolerant --> Infernal Palace --> -100% war weariness.

 

[Rystic]

Dang, I realized all too late I voted wrong. I full-heartedly support this proposal so much (out of hate for Decius as he is now - no more Raiders for him would be sweet!) Or in general tolerant could be changed a little for the Elohim to not be so warmongering.

However, I do have one question from something I read elsewhere, maybe the person was wrong though. Can't the Elohim become spiritual from one of the Unique Features, like how Auric becomes Aggressive? Is this only in FF maybe?

That's only in Fall Further.

 

[DioBrando]

Elohim should lose tolerant and gain spiritual, yes. tolerant should be given to Decius

This is correct.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Tolerant should stay Elohim. Quite a number of lore reasons have been tossed around since the addition of the trait, most relating to sirona being tolerant or some such. From a balance point of view, it simply works well and is not overpowering on the elohim. In FF decius of calabim can get tolerant... If that doesn't cry for a balance adjustment, I don't know what does. Not only would you have one of the best Axeman UU's, one of the best late game armies, you have one of the most (potentially) powerful traits in the game, and the ability to synergize it with vampires. Vampyric Stoneskin Ogres. Or Vampyric ogres in general. Or vampyric mimics. Or.. well there are quite a few thing that could be named.

 

[Imuratep]

Don't remove tolerant. Giving them spiritual just would make them less unique and that's IMHO the wrong direction.
Tolerant is cool and fitting for the Elohim, but the fact that they have to conquer to use it is against the way I want to play them. They are THE peacewongers lorewise and the game should be able to represent this.

Culture flipping should be much easier to enable a peaceful way of gaining new cities (in my personal modmod I gave creative +50% culture in all cities to make it matter) OR you should be able to build all units and buildings of civilizations that are culturally represented in your city (So if your city is 90% Elohim 5% Lanun and 5% Ljosalfar you can build Lanun and Ljosalfar buildung and units)

 

[MasterofDisasta]

Tolerant is cool and fitting for the Elohim, but the fact that they have to conquer to use it is against the way I want to play them. They are THE peacewongers lorewise and the game should be able to represent this.

Elohim do enter into wars in the lore, but its usually to defend someone else. I remember one pedia entry (I think Hyborem's whisper) was about how Ethne coudn't decide whether to declare war on the infernals to protect the Amurites.

Plus, the Elohim have no choice but to defend themselves if someone declares war on them and the best way to get an AI to declare peace is to capture a few cities.