Emperor Game (COMPLETED)

[Pedro78]

A few things:

Spoiler :

• HA rush date is very map-dependant but I'd say that attacking around T80 with 10+ HAs is looks very doable on this one. But I think HA rush is a baad idea here, not because it wouldn't work (it's Emperor, everything works), but because it wouldn't really help you master the game mechanics
• That gold spot has no food and is ridiculously far away, no reason to settle it. Ever.
• Basically, barbs will enter your borders when the number of non-barbarian cities in the world exceeds 3 times the number of players (it's actually a bit more complicated but that's all you really need to know). Barbs will always enter your borders if they can attack one of your units on this turn, though. Anyway you should be safe for a while here.
• Mids good. Oracle not good. You don't have marble, aren't IND and don't have a lot of commerce and have plenty of land. So Oracle comes (if ever) after your worker techs.

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the tips everybody. Lots of great information here. I have played on.

Spoiler To T51 :

Alright, so the third settler came out on T45. He went to the wheat/stone spot. T46 Mound City is founded, it will work on Pyramids as soon as Masonry is finished. Worker built a road beforehand for instant trade connection.
Worker near Cahokia will improve wheat then stone, worker near Poverty Point will road, worker being produced in Cahokia will improve copper then chop probably.
Barb situation mostly under control.

A few more turns pass, workers continue their actions.

Masonry finished T51. Pottery next. Capital working on settler, will be aided by a chop soon. Settle 1 SW of pigs next?
Poverty Point working on Great Wall for failgold. I feel like Poverty Point isn't turning out well. Should I have built a farm on a flood plain there?
Mound City begins working on the Mids. Both the workers down there will get the stone up soon.
Stupid Mansa researching Iron Working instead of Writing.

I feel off about this turnset for some reason. Should I have gone for Pottery first? Seems like commerce is lacking.

 

[Wrathful]

Alright, played a few more turns.

Spoiler To T56 :

T52: Wheat farm improved, workers start on stone. Borders popped in Cahokia allowing me to move NW fogbuster. Now a warrior is stuck where the lion was. North worker chops a forest for Cahokia.

The northwest has insane amounts of seafood.

On T55 I turn my slider back up to head for Pottery. Writing next?

Looks like there's islands over here. I have so much land to settle. Sometimes the Pangaea map script does this. (I believe the "shoreline" setting determines it.)

T56: Stone connected to the empire. Now we can get the Mids finished. 2 workers down there will be on chopping duty.
Third settler finished in capital. Capital will build worker next because I have a lot of land to improve.
Where should I settle? I'm leaning towards 1S of the crabs. I feel like I need more commerce. I could chop a forest there and work the grassland mine to get the work boat out quick. I also want to explore the island to the west.
(I can't settle 3N 2W of the capital because that would mess up spots to the NW.)
Tech: Writing next? Or perhaps Mysticism. I favor writing because I could get libraries to work my Rep scientists. Also want to open borders with Mansa for trade routes.
Note: There's a German scout in the NW fog, so that area is fogbusted.

 

[Pedro78]

Nice write-ups still

Not a very straightforward map... Mids are excellent with this much food and will allow you to settle more land earlier, then switch to Caste and run Rep Merchants in most cities. It's quite tricky to use the Mids to their full potential as it takes a lot of planning.

A few things:

• You'll get the Mids much quicker if you chop them in Cahokia. Will require a bunch of workers but it's completely worth it, and you'll have a lot of tiles to improve with the increased happy cap
• No reason not to go for Writing here
• Best next city is 3W of PP imo, these grassland pigs are great and you'll need a city to pump out settlers as Cahokia wil build the Mids and then grow

I don't see any major mistake from the screenshots (haven't looked in depth), but I prefer saves TBH, easier to analyze

Not a whole lot of advice but I'm a little tired lol. Hope this is enough to point you towards your next turnset

 

[Wrathful]

Mids are excellent with this much food and will allow you to settle more land earlier, then switch to Caste and run Rep Merchants in most cities. It's quite tricky to use the Mids to their full potential as it takes a lot of planning.

Hey, thanks again for the help. So, to leverage the Mids well, I should settle my land quickly then start running merchants? How does this tech path sound?

Pottery > Writing > Alphabet > (Trade for Myst, Sailing, IW, etc.) > Currency > Code of Laws

I have played some more turns as well.

Spoiler To T65 :

Adjusted some things based on advice. Cahokia working on Mids; the 2 workers down south will chop it out. Mound City building a worker in preparation for the new land I will have to improve. The new city will be settled next turn 1 SW of the pig.

T57: Chaco Canyon settled. It will start on a work boat to explore the islands to the east. Micro allowed me to get more commerce from the flood plains.

T59: Pottery done. Research set to Writing. Worker 1-pop whipped in Mound City; it will go to Poverty Point to cottage flood plains. First chop for the Mids in Cahokia.

T60: Cahokia grows to size 4. Production set to granary. This will be 2-pop whipped next turn. Production will then resume on Mids.
Worker in Mound City done. Production set to warrior there. Thanks to roads, the worker can reach a flood plain a start cottaging this turn.
Meanwhile, 52 hammers have been put into The Great Wall in Poverty Point. I really don't get what these AIs are doing. Not a single wonder - not even Stonehenge - has been built yet. No one has Writing. Mansa went for Iron Working. I hope he's not bee-lining Metal Casting for his unique building. All the AIs are bragging about how their Archers will destroy us all. Actually, I still haven't met someone. I think I'll send out a Dog Soldier to find them.

T61: Granary whipped. Now Mansa is researching Masonry. Thanks for nothing. He's also settling another city east of Poverty Point.

T62: Granary finished. 78 more hammers will soon be added to the Pyramids. Also finished the pig pasture by Chaco Canyon.

T63: Pacal converts to Judaism. Stonehenge finally built.

T64: Chaco Canyon grows to size 2. It starts working on a settler, will be boosted by a chop. This settler will go to the crabs spot. Unless there is something better?

And so we arrive at T65. Mids are coming along nicely. They should be done by T75 I suppose. Hoping that someone builds TGW soon so I can get to writing.

Save attached as requested.

 

[Wrathful]

I played a few more turns.

Spoiler To T72 :

Warrior arrives in Cahokia just in time to quell unhappiness.

A fogbuster warrior who got stuck when Mansa settled a city found Gandhi's borders.

Trying to find the last AI without success...

T69: Writing finished. Open borders with Mansa and Bismarck, but not anybody else to avoid negative diplo. Worker near Poverty Point just finished another FP cottage and will road to Mansa next.

T70: Looks like Pacal got sailing; I could get trade routes if I open borders with him. He's in Judaism, but only Gandhi is his worst enemy. I decide to open borders with him because Gandhi is not likely to demand me to stop trading with him. Also, I'm pretty sure he won't even get angry if I refuse.

My Mayan friend provides me with another granary resource.

A 2-pop worker whip and a chop produce 120 more hammers for the Pyramids. They will be done next turn.

T71: The Great Wall was finally finished. I received 154 failgold.

T72: Native America rejoices as its work of the ages is finished:

So here's the situation now at T72.

I decided to disband two scout units to the east and south. I wanted to find the last AI, but I'm paying money for units now so I don't think it's worth it.

After examining my cities more closely, I noticed that I'm not actually getting any trade routes with Pacal or Mansa. Why is that? I opened borders with them, and you can see the little trade icon in the scoreboard. I'm roading into Mansa, so I should get some soon.

I'm not sure how to proceed from here. Here are some concrete questions:

• Settle 1S of crabs next?
• When to revolt to Representation?
• What should I build in my cities? The things I have set currently are placeholders.
• To get to Code of Laws, should I go through the Mysticism route or the Currency route? Mysticism route is much cheaper, but Currency seems like it would great on this map.

I have attached the save. I'll wait for advice before continuing.

 

[Pedro78]

So, to leverage the Mids well, I should settle my land quickly then start running merchants?

It's actually more complex than that. It's also very map-dependant. To get a better understanding of these mechanics it's better to look at what is suboptimal and should be optimized:

• When you don't have the Mids but have cities with libraries that don't have good tiles to work, you're losing out on not having Rep scientists
• When you don't have the Mids but have cities with a big food surplus and that need to grow, you're losing out on not having the Mids
• When complete the Mids but all your cities are still small and not nearly ready to make use of Rep, your timing is suboptimal
• When you complete the Mids but your cities with high food surplus have no good tiles to work AND you don't have CoL your timing is suboptimal
• When you complete the Mids, have CoL but are not ready to switch to CS because you still have cities + infra to get up, your timing is bad

Getting the most out of the Mids is about optimizing this multiple variables function (which can mean seriously neglecting some of these variables in favour of others). And even then, having AIs around you changes things even more because you might be able to trade for CoL, or might want to stress expansion more in order to secure land etc. So it's all about reading the situation, which usually is far from easy.

After examining my cities more closely, I noticed that I'm not actually getting any trade routes with Pacal or Mansa. Why is that? I opened borders with them, and you can see the little trade icon in the scoreboard. I'm roading into Mansa, so I should get some soon.

The trade icon on the scoreboard means that one of you and Mansa is connected to the other. He has Sailing so he's connected to you. But you're most likely not connected to his trade network as you're not getting traderoutes.

Settle 1S of crabs next?

Yup. No hurry in getting this spot though, as it's completely safe. Infrastructure + growth in Cahokia should be priorized now that you have the Mids.

When to revolt to Representation?

As soon as you have Happy cap problems or start running Specs. No reason to revolt earlier as it would just increase your civic upkeep costs.

What should I build in my cities?

Library in Cahokia. Granaries everywhere. Library makes sense in Mound City and maybe in PP as it has decent commerce.

To get to Code of Laws, should I go through the Mysticism route or the Currency route? Mysticism route is much cheaper, but Currency seems like it would great on this map.

In this case, through Currency. It's a long way but you have a lot of land to settle and Currency will pay off quickly. It looks like you have some islands to settle. However you'd better wait for Caste System to settle the cities that have seafood in the second ring (run an artist for 3 turns)

Oh and you should have played this game on IMM... here it's going to be such a breeze from your current position (even IMM would be the same, there should be some kind of intermediary level betwen IMM and deity. Maybe play on IMM and give each AI an extra starting settler

 

[Wrathful]

Oh and you should have played this game on IMM... here it's going to be such a breeze from your current position (even IMM would be the same, there should be some kind of intermediary level betwen IMM and deity. Maybe play on IMM and give each AI an extra starting settler

I don't know about that...maybe if this game goes well. I was planning to play an offline game after this one. If I do well on both then I will probably try Immortal (that would be my first ever Immortal game).

The trade icon on the scoreboard means that one of you and Mansa is connected to the other. He has Sailing so he's connected to you. But you're most likely not connected to his trade network as you're not getting traderoutes.

Ah, that explains it. I guess opening borders with them was a bad idea.

It's actually more complex than that. It's also very map-dependant. To get a better understanding of these mechanics it's better to look at what is suboptimal and should be optimized:

• When you don't have the Mids but have cities with libraries that don't have good tiles to work, you're losing out on not having Rep scientists
• When you don't have the Mids but have cities with a big food surplus and that need to grow, you're losing out on not having the Mids
• When complete the Mids but all your cities are still small and not nearly ready to make use of Rep, your timing is suboptimal
• When you complete the Mids but your cities with high food surplus have no good tiles to work AND you don't have CoL your timing is suboptimal
• When you complete the Mids, have CoL but are not ready to switch to CS because you still have cities + infra to get up, your timing is bad

Getting the most out of the Mids is about optimizing this multiple variables function (which can mean seriously neglecting some of these variables in favour of others). And even then, having AIs around you changes things even more because you might be able to trade for CoL, or might want to stress expansion more in order to secure land etc. So it's all about reading the situation, which usually is far from easy.

Do you think my timing was bad here? I finished the Pyramids on T72, but I've seen it get built by the AI earlier than that on Deity. I think I can grow my cities fairly quickly.

Anyway, I have played several more turns.

Spoiler To T78 :

Okay, so I adjusted some stuff and did some planning. Settler will go to the crabs spot. I will 2-pop whip granaries in Poverty Point and Chaco Canyon. Cahokia will whip the library at 5 population probably. I'll use a chop for that. Mound City will whip a library I think. I also turned up my slider for Mathematics (not shown in screenshot). The failgold from The Great Wall will get me there. I'll use Math to trade for Alphabet (hopefully the AI isn't too slow to tech it).

T73: I decide to switch to Representation now. Poverty Point is unhappy and Mound City will become unhappy soon. It's not going to cost me any more gold per turn either (at least for the time being).
Espionage shows Mansa finally heading for Writing, thank goodness.

T74: Mansa's land looks quite nice. It will be mine someday hopefully.

T75: A chop in the newly-settled Mesa Verde allows it to get its work boat out quickly.
Also finished the road to Mansa's capital, so I should get some trade routes next turn.

T76: Mansa's teching Code of Laws. He's after the religion I suppose. Seeing as he's Mansa and all, would he trade this to me immediately? I could give him Currency for it. This could actually really speed up my game if it works out in my favor. Even if he won't trade it, he'll adopt Confucianism, leading to more religious tensions among the AIs.

T77: Library 2-pop whipped in Cahokia. Rep scientists coming soon.

T78: So, here's the current situation. I'll post the screenshot and go through each city one by one. You can also look at the save I've attached.

• Cahokia: I got some overflow from whipping the library. What should I put it into? Library and granary are both finished there. I figured I would want a barracks there at some point. Didn't want to delay growth with a worker or settler. Warriors and dog soldiers cost money to maintain. Walls are useless. So what else is there? Also, should I continue to work the grassland mine or should I start working scientists now? I'm guessing the latter.
• Poverty Point: You may be wondering what I'm doing with this place. Work boat? Here's my logic, such as it is: I'll need a scout boat to explore the western islands. Since the city is growing relatively slowly, I can get the work boat done and still have some time remaining to put some hammers into the granary for overflow.
  
• Mound City: It already has a granary and just whipped the library. Will work scientists here later.
  
• Chaco Canyon: Will whip the granary at size 4 and build another settler next.
• Mesa Verde: Not much to say here. It's working on a granary, will whip that I guess.

How does this plan sound?

Future ideas: If we have iron, then I could attack Mansa or Pacal (or both) with Cuirassiers. I already have horse (2 actually). I understand that I could kill them faster than that, but I think that Cuirs would help me learn the game better.

 

[Fippy]

Some thoughts about early stone and Pyras,
failgold can also be a great option, every forest chopped in other cities is worth 40g and one of my favorite plays is having one or more workers on that.
Pyras city can switch to something else for 1 turn when chops arrive for other cities, i especially like that you can be sure when you will get your gold

Let's say we would play deity, there would always be a chance of an AI building them earlier but it's still a lot of gold usually (this time from your main city building them), 500 gold (in really close cases) means happy teching times thou..calculated risk.

 

[Wrathful]

Some thoughts about early stone and Pyras,
failgold can also be a great option, every forest chopped in other cities is worth 40g and one of my favorite plays is having one or more workers on that.
Pyras city can switch to something else for 1 turn when chops arrive for other cities, i especially like that you can be sure when you will get your gold

Let's say we would play deity, there would always be a chance of an AI building them earlier but it's still a lot of gold usually (this time from your main city building them), 500 gold (in really close cases) means happy teching times thou..calculated risk.

Yeah, I've seen the Mids get built on Deity in the T60-70 range. I got them done on T72 so I was a bit slow there. Certainly I could have gotten there faster if I had settled the stone city first. But then I might have lost the flood plains spot.
Failgold from the Mids would have been nice. Actually, thinking back on it I should have done that instead of roading to Mansa. It would have been more benefical. I did get some failgold from The Great Wall though.

I played a little bit further.

Spoiler To T84 :

T80: I'm working 2 rep scientists now in Cahokia. A great person will be born in 4 turns. It will be either a Great Scientist or a Great Engineer.
Also whipped a granary in Chaco Canyon.

T81: Chaco Canyon working on Settler now. I also messed up with the fogbusting. I should have been more diligent. Now I'll have to 1-pop whip a Dog Soldier in Mound City.
I finished Mathematics by the way. Heading for Currency next.

But of course, the barbarians have to troll me. Why isn't he entering my borders?? I'll whip the guy anyway I guess. Mound City will finish another settler soon, will be boosted by a math chop.

No one's ever going to get this resource.

T83: Granary whipped in Poverty Point. Barb archer defeated.

T84: Building settlers everywhere for the seafood spots.They should get settled around the time that I get Currency.
Well, I got a Great Engineer. What should I do with him? Here are my choices:

• Bulb Metal Casting. I don't really see the value of this. I can't trade with anyone yet.
  
• Settle him. This would give 6 beakers and 3 hammers per turn.
  
• Rush out a wonder. Both The Great Lighthouse and The Oracle have not been built yet. But I really don't want to build either of those. It would be too cheesy. I
• Golden Age. Now doesn't seem like a good time for one. But maybe later?

Lots of options here.

 

[sampsa]

I don't know why you consider rushing Oracle/GLH as cheesy. You lack the pre-reqs for both anyway so it's not clear if you can even get neither of them. Anyway at this date settling is pretty good (with rep) IMO.

There is one thing that I see in this save that I find very sub-optimal: slow-building settlers post-granary. For example Chaco Canyon, -bar half-full working high -tiles. Just grow and whip when available.

Spoiler :

I made a comparison table between the two. I don't think there are any big mistakes, but this was all made in my head without a test game so there might be errors.

"Slow"-part is easy to understand. "Food" means how much food you have in the bar and 11/24 means 24 is the needed to grow. "Hamm" means how many hammers you have invested and how many are you producing this turn. So you are just working those two available tiles (pigs+fp cot) until settler is out T92. Total at the bottom shows what you have produced after T92.

"Whip" can be a bit confusing I admit. So T84 we switch into barracks/library and start growing. So hammers inside (brackets) are going towards barr/lib. T85 is painted green, because we surpass the food bar to grow in between turns T85/86. I am assuming we have green cottages available as extra tiles (seems to be a fair assumption looking at the save). Food bar is now at 13 (24/2=12 due to granary and 1 overflow). Straightforward until T88 when we grow to size 4, slow-build settler for one turn, whip it T89, then start growing again. (btw there is probably a mistake, should be 44+68, the 60 comes from 2-pop whip and 8 is normal production).

So the differences are

Slow:

• generated +7 and +65
  
• settler out T92
  
• no unhappiness from whip

Whip:

• generated +24 and +81, total 8 turns of cottages worked.
• settler out T90
• 8 turns of unhappiness from whip

The unhappiness doesn't hamper you in any way with this happy cap. Note also that growing to size 6 and whipping a settler with one turn of invested would certainly win a lot more (unless all that 36 invested in a settler is from overflow last turn?).

How is it possible that slow-building a settler/worker loses so much? Because the granary effectively cuts the food bar in half. You need only 12 to grow from 2->3 for example, but this growth can be whipped back for 30. Slow-building doesn't turn 12 into 30, it turns 12 into 12.



tl;dr: Always whip settlers/workers after you have built a granary.

 

[Wrathful]

I don't know why you consider rushing Oracle/GLH as cheesy. You lack the pre-reqs for both anyway so it's not clear if you can even get neither of them. Anyway at this date settling is pretty good (with rep) IMO.

There is one thing that I see in this save that I find very sub-optimal: slow-building settlers post-granary. For example Chaco Canyon, -bar half-full working high -tiles. Just grow and whip when available.

Spoiler :

I made a comparison table between the two. I don't think there are any big mistakes, but this was all made in my head without a test game so there might be errors.

"Slow"-part is easy to understand. "Food" means how much food you have in the bar and 11/24 means 24 is the needed to grow. "Hamm" means how many hammers you have invested and how many are you producing this turn. So you are just working those two available tiles (pigs+fp cot) until settler is out T92. Total at the bottom shows what you have produced after T92.

"Whip" can be a bit confusing I admit. So T84 we switch into barracks/library and start growing. So hammers inside (brackets) are going towards barr/lib. T85 is painted green, because we surpass the food bar to grow in between turns T85/86. I am assuming we have green cottages available as extra tiles (seems to be a fair assumption looking at the save). Food bar is now at 13 (24/2=12 due to granary and 1 overflow). Straightforward until T88 when we grow to size 4, slow-build settler for one turn, whip it T89, then start growing again. (btw there is probably a mistake, should be 44+68, the 60 comes from 2-pop whip and 8 is normal production).

View attachment 479206

So the differences are

Slow:

• generated +7 and +65
  
• settler out T92
  
• no unhappiness from whip

Whip:

• generated +24 and +81, total 8 turns of cottages worked.
• settler out T90
• 8 turns of unhappiness from whip

The unhappiness doesn't hamper you in any way with this happy cap. Note also that growing to size 6 and whipping a settler with one turn of invested would certainly win a lot more (unless all that 36 invested in a settler is from overflow last turn?).

How is it possible that slow-building a settler/worker loses so much? Because the granary effectively cuts the food bar in half. You need only 12 to grow from 2->3 for example, but this growth can be whipped back for 30. Slow-building doesn't turn 12 into 30, it turns 12 into 12.



tl;dr: Always whip settlers/workers after you have built a granary.

Wow, this is amazing! I appear to have underestimated the power of the whip.
I think I'll replay from a previous save just to see the effects of this.

I thought that rushing GLH/Oracle would be cheesy because at a higher difficulty level they would have surely been built already (maybe not GLH actually). For learning purposes I thought it wouldn't be a good idea.

So, here's my replay from T78.

Spoiler Replay to T90 :

Sent a warrior out to fogbust so I wouldn't get delayed like last time.

Also decided to put overflow into a settler in Cahokia.Will 2-pop whip this later I think. I'll send a northern worker to chop the forest 3W of Cahokia (I'm settling there next and don't want to burn a forest). This should yield 24H with math.

T80: Chaco Canyon will continue growing next turn and will NOT slow build the settler!

T81: Math finished (again). Chaco Canyon's overflow went into a library.

T84: The game gave me a Great Scientist instead of a Great Engineer, had to fix that with the worldbuilder.
I 2-pop whipped a settler in Cahokia. The hammers invested here were created by chops and overflow, not slow-building!
I settled the Great Engineer, by the way. 6 beakers and 3 hammers seems like a nice boost at this stage of the game.
Already I see improvements compared to my previous T84 save. I'm getting a settler out now and will get out more soon. Chaco Canyon is size 3 and will be size 4 next turn. I also avoided the barb problems near Mound City. It's pretty impressive.

T85: Settler 2-pop whipped in Mound City.

T86: Pacal is spreading his religion to me. How thoughtful. Won't adopt it, of course.
Also settled Snaketown 3W of Cahokia. Chop will finish WB there quick.

T88: Our island is looking pretty barren so far.
Mansa converted to Confucianism.

T89: There you are! Found the last AI, finally. He has nothing of interest for me. No one has Alphabet yet.

T90: Here's the current situation. Chaco Canyon will 3-pop whip the settler. 7th city will be settled next turn. Chop will complete a work boat in new city in 1 turn.
Justinian is the first to Alphabet. I will put a turn or so into Alphabet myself and trade it from him after I finish Currency.

 

[Wrathful]

I played a few more turns.

Spoiler To T95 :

Our island is completely devoid of life.

Settler 3-pop whipped in Chaco Canyon.

T93: A pivotal turn. Currency provides a nice boost.

Snaketown will whip the granary into a galley next turn. I found an island spot with fish that I'd like to settle for overseas trade routes.

I obtain Alphabet from Justinian...

and I obtain Iron Working from Saladin. I have two sources of iron: one on the barren island and another 3W 1S of Mound City. I will acquire the latter via a border pop in 16 turns.

T94: Libraries whipped in Poverty Point and Chaco Canyon. Granary whipped in Snaketown. Then I make a nice trade.

Mansa provides us with CoL. I also picked up some of his Oracle failgold. (Saladin beat him to it last turn).
Also made a few other trades. Got Polytheism, Sailing, and some gold.

T95: Granary whipped in Mesa Verde (crab city). Got Monotheism and Priesthood from Pacal. Hopefully I can trade for Monarchy soon so I can improve my wine. No one has it yet.
Here's the current situation:

I'm working on stone wonders for failgold. I traded math to several people and Mansa's had CoL for a long time so hopefully they will build the wonders soon.
It looks like I have 3 more spots to settle. One is in the nowthwestern tundra, two others are 1-tile islands. I have a settler heading to the tundra spot. Next turn I will chop a forest into a settler in Mound City and 2-pop whip it the turn after. I'll probably do the same thing to get the settler for the third spot. Snaketown will provide the galley; I'll 1-pop whip it there.

Tech path: I want to grab Civil Service and switch to Bureaucracy and Caste System in the same turn to avoid 2 turns of anarchy. How does this sound?

 

[Wrathful]

By the way, I hope I'm not playing too slowly. This game may be taking a long time for me to play, but I've seen posts where people play too quickly and make mistakes along the way. Better to spot the errors early on instead of dozens of turns later, if you ask me.

Anyway, I made some more progress.

Spoiler To T100 :

T96: Gandhi had silver for trade. I couldn't resist and gave him fish for it even though he's the worst enemy of three people. Also gave him Priesthood for 30 gold. Decided to open borders with him too. Trade routes provided a nice boost. Actually I should probably have opened borders with him earlier. Who cares what these jokers think, right?

T97: Got Meditation from Mansa for Monotheism. Settler 2-pop whipped in Mound City. I am trying to grow cottages in my capital in preparation for Bureaucracy.

T98: Justinian my friend!

Now I can improve my wine.

T99: Moundville becomes my eighth city.

T100: I will stop here. Some highlights, in no particular order:

• Mound City will 2-pop whip a settler for the spot in the west marked 10 next turn.
• I have a settler heading to the ninth spot with the galley. I will settle this spot immediately because it should be a net gain with its overseas trade routes. Snaketown will probably whip a work boat for the new spot at size 3.
• I want to reach CS in 5 turns and switch into Caste System and Bureaucracy at the same time. I'm hoping that someone will build The Hanging Gardens or Chichen Itza so I can get failgold.
• After CS, I may head for Music for the Great Artist. What do you guys think?

Question: Is it worth it to settle the northeast tundra at some point? No food, but it grabs spice, whale, and some forests. I wouldn't settle it anytime soon, of course.

 

[dutchfire]

The northeast tundra at least has two lake tiles that can become 3f with lighthouses, so there is some food surplus. There are enough forests to chop to get the lighthouse. Spices will be picked up by Chaco Canyon anyway, and whale comes late. It is a pretty marginal city. When you're no longer in slavery, settlers get a lot more expensive since you can't whip them. I think the main question is the opportunity cost: do you have better things to do at that moment?

If you have a few spare hammers somewhere, it might be good to build a unit that can go exploring, so that you get a better feel for the global situation. It will come in handy when you start making war plans.

 

[Wrathful]

The northeast tundra at least has two lake tiles that can become 3f with lighthouses, so there is some food surplus. There are enough forests to chop to get the lighthouse. Spices will be picked up by Chaco Canyon anyway, and whale comes late. It is a pretty marginal city. When you're no longer in slavery, settlers get a lot more expensive since you can't whip them. I think the main question is the opportunity cost: do you have better things to do at that moment?

Yeah, it's probably not worth it. Basically the only thing that city would get is forests and whale. I will likely have more important tasks later.

Update to Civil Service:

Spoiler To T104 :

Announcement reveals everyone's power. Justinian is on top. He's leading the AIs in tech too. I'll have to keep an eye an him.
Look and Mansa and Pacal though. Weaklings. They each only have 4 cities as well. Nice to have peaceful neighbors.

Gandhi apparently has silver AND gold, but he's last in tech somehow. I gave him horses for his surplus gold. I have a second source of horse which should be connected in 7 turns.

Decided to delay settling this city for 1 turn until I switch to Caste System.

T104: Finished Civil Service this turn. 275 BC. Not too shabby. The CoL trade certainly helped with that.

So, here we are at T104. I did have some questions:

• Future plans: We have iron and horse, so I think that Cuirassiers would be good here. Yes, I know that Mansa or Pacal could be killed earlier than that, but I don't have much experience with Cuirs and I think this is a good opportunity to learn.
  
• Tech path: Music for Great Artist? I'd like to use him for a Golden Age to farm some Great Scientists for bulbing. Music is needed to research Military Tradition, so I think this would be best if I'm going for Cuirs.
• I'm getting a great person in 3 turns. If it's an engineer then I'll probably rush some wonder. Great Library perhaps. If it's a scientist, I have more options. I could build an academy in my capital or bulb Philosophy. I'm leaning towards bulbing here. I could switch to Pacifism and adopt Judaism during the Great Artist golden age to rush out great people. What would you suggest I do with my great person?

 

[Gumbolt]

What is the overall plan here? Bit lost looking at this save.

You are planning island cities. Not sure they will help greatly here. You lack GLH to fully abuse this.

Hanging gardens is not bad.

I rarely build monastaries. Waste of hammers here.

Spiro and Mondville likely needed a monument whipped. Or TP as UB is called. Switch to caste would also help with that.

Lack of food and HBR are main stumbling blocks for war here. Mansa is very weak when it comes to military. Albeit he has skirmishers.

A spell with caste and bureau would not be a terrible thing here. Helps with border pops. You would need 2-3 workboats. Especially with new island cities. Run artists for 3 turns in each. Consider whipping 2-3 workboats before you switch civics.

Unless you plan to wait for a great person to avoid anarchy? CService bonus is too big here.

 

[dutchfire]

Overview of the tech screen would be useful. Music+Great Library is good if you can get it. I would revolt now, Bureaucracy is nice.

Usually, I would go for an academy, but your capital is mostly focussed on production, and then bulbing probably makes more sense. (Also since this is your second GP already, right?)

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the help everyone.

What is the overall plan here? Bit lost looking at this save.

Lib Military Tradition, kill Mansa or Pacal (or both) with Cuirs I suppose. I'd like to become familiar with this strategy because it seems like a common tactic, judging from the games I've seen.

What would you do in this scenario?

You are planning island cities. Not sure they will help greatly here. You lack GLH to fully abuse this.

Well, they'll give overseas trade routes, and I can run rep specialists in them too. GLH would have been nice, but I think for learning purposes it's best that I didn't get it.

Hanging gardens is not bad.

I rarely build monastaries. Waste of hammers here.

Yeah, building the monastery was a mistake. But at least I was only doing it for one turn.

I actually wanted failgold from the Hanging Gardens. Do you think completing it would be better?

Lack of food and HBR are main stumbling blocks for war here. Mansa is very weak when it comes to military. Albeit he has skirmishers.

Why do you say that? Every city except Poverty Point has at least one 5 food tile.
I should be able to trade for Horseback Riding. If not, I tech it easily anyway.

A spell with caste and bureau would not be a terrible thing here. Helps with border pops. You would need 2-3 workboats. Especially with new island cities. Run artists for 3 turns in each. Consider whipping 2-3 workboats before you switch civics.

Unless you plan to wait for a great person to avoid anarchy? CService bonus is too big here.

I will switch to Caste System and Bureaucracy next turn. I can get the required work boats beforehand.

Overview of the tech screen would be useful. Music+Great Library is good if you can get it. I would revolt now, Bureaucracy is nice.

Usually, I would go for an academy, but your capital is mostly focussed on production, and then bulbing probably makes more sense. (Also since this is your second GP already, right?)

Yes, this is my second great person. Nobody has Aesthetics yet. I am 99% sure I can win Music. I don't like manually building the Great Library here because I have no marble. However, if I get a Great Engineer I will probably rush it.
Will revolt next turn (need to whip work boats).


I played a few more turns.

Spoiler To T108 :

T105: Switched to Caste System and Bureaucracy.

T106: Germany begs Writing. Okay, I see no harm in that.

He's pleased with me now. Excellent...

Running rep artists for border pops in coastal cities. Settled Nacogdoches, my ninth city.
Delayed clam city for 1 turn to wait for work boat to arrive.

T107: Galley fogbusting the island to prevent barb galleys from spawning.

Also settled my tenth city (clam island).

Exploring Mansa's land with a spare Dog Soldier:

T108: Well, I got my Great Scientist. I see two options for him:

• Build an academy.
• Bulb Philosophy.

Since my capital isn't that great in terms of commerce, I'm leaning towards bulbing here. I'll need Philo for Liberalism.

I have a general idea of what I want to do next:

1. Get Music. Start a Golden Age with the Great Artist.
2. Tech Paper, Nationalism, etc. and get Great Scientists during the Golden Age. I can adopt Judaism and switch to Pacifism as well. Pacifism + Golden Age + Philosophical Leader = lots of Great People.
3. Double-bulb Education, Lib Military Tradition. Get Gunpowder. If I can't trade for Horseback Riding by now I will not be pleased.
4. Kill people with Cuirs.

How does that sound?

Here's the tech page, as requested. Justinian is leading the AI. Gandhi is disappointing me.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay some big issues for me on workers.
Cottaging plains when you plan to run rep scientists? 3 workers currently doing this?
Another farming a plain? To chain farm the grassland to help the city run more scientists? If your objective is rep scientists then go with this. Later on you will want farms to regrow as you whip cuirs. Cottages everywhere on a food poor map won't work later on. You will need farms.

You are building a lot of barracks here. Lack of builds? Mesa verde with 2 sea foods could grow nicely here and run 3-4 scientists at size 5-6. I think your island cities could do something similar. Grow to size 3 with no whips and work 2 scientists. No whips in caste!. Could be painful. Especially on 1 food coastal tiles. Spiro you could be chopping for the light house? The rep beakers is the big plus of caste.

So hanging gardens. 290 gold. Eventually. At present that will give back about 300 beakers. If you want fail gold I would be building it in poverty point or elsewhere too and max out gold.. You have forest you could be chopping into this wonder elsewhere.

You have 10 cities here. That could be 10 more rep scientists. To max out great scientists you will need a large city that can run 5-6 specialists. Your capital and Chaco canyon could easily do this. Island and coastal cities could also be useful running 2 specialists. Messa Verde looks good to grow with LH and granary already. Is it better to focus on 3-4 good sized cities than 6-7 that may take 10-20 turns to become useful?

Bulbs - Edu x2. Lib x1. Philosophy is okay but your capital lacks jud religion and at present would be a good GP farm. Have to judge how much pacifism will give you here vs return from academy in capital over 40 turns. 1100 beakers is easily made up. You have 4 cities with the religion. So could spike GP numbers nicely. Each bulb is 3x500+ 3xpop. At present about 1600 beakers each.

I think you will easily get to Lib and cuirs first. 30-40 turns. It's managing the economy and whips once you get there.