Emperor Game (COMPLETED)

[sampsa]

Very well played game so far. I'd say your play is way above emperor level, it's somewhere at "beating immortal at least 50% of the time".

I'd just finish the HG, 10pop is worth at least 10*30 which is imo worth more than 300. Agree with Gumbolt on the river plains cottages, I would build them only in capital and I'm not sure if they beat rep specialists even with bureau bonuses.

Your plan looks good to me, I'd just skip the academy and "rather win the game, thank you".

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the great advice guys. This is really helping me out.

Very well played game so far. I'd say your play is way above emperor level, it's somewhere at "beating immortal at least 50% of the time".

Yeah, this game has really helped me gain confidence. There's been so much good advice in this thread.

I'd just finish the HG, 10pop is worth at least 10*30 which is imo worth more than 300. Agree with Gumbolt on the river plains cottages, I would build them only in capital and I'm not sure if they beat rep specialists even with bureau bonuses.

This is probably the best thing to do. I don't know when these AIs will built the wonder (they've been pretty slow with the wonders so far). Also, I can't really get more than 300 gold from it because the wonder requires an aqueduct to build. I don't want to sink 100 hammers into an unnecessary building in my cities.

Your plan looks good to me, I'd just skip the academy and "rather win the game, thank you".

What would you do with the great scientist I have now? Save him for Education bulb perhaps? Looks like I'll need 3 great scientists. 2 for Education and 1 for Liberalism.

Okay some big issues for me on workers.
Cottaging plains when you plan to run rep scientists? 3 workers currently doing this?
Another farming a plain? To chain farm the grassland to help the city run more scientists? If your objective is rep scientists then go with this. Later on you will want farms to regrow as you whip cuirs. Cottages everywhere on a food poor map won't work later on. You will need farms.

This makes so much sense now that I think about it. I will redirect my workers when I start to play again.

You are building a lot of barracks here. Lack of builds? Mesa verde with 2 sea foods could grow nicely here and run 3-4 scientists at size 5-6. I think your island cities could do something similar. Grow to size 3 with no whips and work 2 scientists. No whips in caste!. Could be painful. Especially on 1 food coastal tiles. Spiro you could be chopping for the light house? The rep beakers is the big plus of caste.

You have 10 cities here. That could be 10 more rep scientists. To max out great scientists you will need a large city that can run 5-6 specialists. Your capital and Chaco canyon could easily do this. Island and coastal cities could also be useful running 2 specialists. Messa Verde looks good to grow with LH and granary already. Is it better to focus on 3-4 good sized cities than 6-7 that may take 10-20 turns to become useful?

These are great recommendations. I will make adjustments to my cities when I play further.


I couldn't resist the urge to play a few more turns!

Spoiler To T112 :

So, I made some changes. Cahokia will finish the Hanging Gardens this turn. Spiro working on a lighthouse, will be assisted by chops. One worker will chop a lighthouse for Snaketown. I will send a second worker to help with irrigation by Chaco Canyon.
Decided to save my Great Scientist for now (don't know what to do with him).

T109: A great turn. I got Aesthetics. Finished HG:

Got Calendar from Saladin. I have incense and spice to improve. It's also needed if I want to bulb Liberalism (it blocks the bulb). I also gave Saladin my copper in exchange for ivory.

Also grabbed Gandhi's failgold. Someone beat him to the Temple of Artemis.

And I gave Justinian clam for dye.

T110: Got Literature. Music next.

T111: Chopping forest for failgold from Chichen Itza. Rep scientists are starting to pay off. 260 beakers/turn at 100% research...

T112: Now Mansa, you know I can't do that.

Religious wars can be unpleasant you say? Don't worry my friend, we will be at war soon enough I imagine...

Here's a screenshot of my core empire (well, everything except the island cities):

You can see the markers I placed to guide my worker management.

I have around 350 hammers invested in Chichen Itza in Cahokia, Poverty Point, Mound City, and Chaco Canyon. Since Cahokia has the highest hammer output, it is currently working on the wonder. Whenever I chop for failgold I switch production of the wonder to the city which benefited from the chop.

Finishing the Hanging Gardens was a great move here in my opinion. The population boost greatly accelerated my development here. It's a lot better than waiting an eternity for the 300 gold.

This certainly feels much improved. My beaker rate increased by 90 or so in 4 turns, so I must be doing something right...

 

[sampsa]

What would you do with the great scientist I have now? Save him for Education bulb perhaps? Looks like I'll need 3 great scientists. 2 for Education and 1 for Liberalism.

Yes, at a glance it looks like it should lead to faster cuir-attack time than an academy. I think 3 GS is optimal yes, rest of your can be GM for missions (HA->cuir upgrade possibly?)

 

[Wrathful]

Yes, at a glance it looks like it should lead to faster cuir-attack time than an academy. I think 3 GS is optimal yes, rest of your can be GM for missions (HA->cuir upgrade possibly?)

Ah yes, trade missions. I had forgotten about those. Now that I think about it, upgrading Horse Archers would be nice.

I might need to self-tech HBR though. These AIs are slow.


Anyway, I played onward. Golden Age is ready (not started yet).

Spoiler To T120 :

T114: Music finished. Received a free Great Artist. Set research to Philosophy.
I will not start the Golden Age quite yet. I want to collect gold for research and improve my Great Person farm cities. Looks like Cahokia, Chaco Canyon, and Mesa Verde will be the main ones.

Going full farm mode here. Screenshot of workers:

With Judaism in most of my major GP farms, I have decided to start the golden age when I finish Philosophy. During the golden age I will get out 2 great scientists, hopefully a great merchant for upgrades, get Paper and most of Nationalism, and start working on Horse Archers to upgrade.

Sometime around here I also sold Monotheism to Bismarck for 50 gold.

T117: Realized that I need Archery to build Horse Archers. Oops. But a good trade opportunity presents itself:

I got Hunting and Construction. At this point I can probably get Archery in 1 turn at 0% research too. Everyone knows it so I get a big discount on it.

T118: Curses! Mansa just got 520 gold for trade! 520 gold!!! How? Who knows? No one built a wonder!
Then I remember that he recently got a Great Merchant. That explains it. Trade mission.
Of course this happens the turn after I make a "fair" trade with him.
I can still grab some of it, though:

(Just to be sure: you guys wouldn't have given him Civil Service for the gold, right? To avoid advancing him too much?)

Anyway, Pacal is doing well with his proselytizing. Judaism spread in Cahokia. All the GP farms have it now.

My scout found the Temple of Artemis. This will be important when I conduct my trade mission.

Mansa is teching Metal Casting by the way. I will need this because it is in front of Liberalism in the Great Scientist bulb order. I'll probably give him Music for it.
Compass is also needed...I'll have to get that myself. These AIs certainly won't get it in time.

T120: Philosophy done. Taoism founded in Spiro.

Well, all the preparations are complete. The Golden Age can begin now.

Overviews of all my GP cities, starting with Cahokia. Working 5 scientists here:

Chaco Canyon, 5 scientists here too:

Mesa Verde, working 7 merchants for upgrades:

Snaketown might not be able to get a GM in the golden age, but I can farm some points at least:

Spiro is doing the same. Rep merchants are really paying off here.

Other cities will work on Horse Archers. I have some forest left that I will chop.

Will probably give Mansa HBR next turn for the rest of his gold (if he still has it, that is).

At some point the AIs will build Chichen Itza, giving me a big pile of gold.

War plans: Pacal and Mansa are both soft targets. I have a 0.7 power rating with Mansa; my "army" consists of 7 warriors, a dog soldier and a galley. So Mansa doesn't have very much.
Pacal is pretty weak too though. Here's Uxmal:

He has 2 guys there.
Neither AI has Feudalism yet (nobody does, actually). I could probably kill both of them!


Well, not much more to say I guess. What do you guys think? Can I do it?

 

[Pedro78]

Just to be sure: you guys wouldn't have given him Civil Service for the gold, right? To avoid advancing him too much?

I would have given him CS for that gold, especially on EMP as he's dead soon anyway.

I have a 0.7 power rating with Mansa; my "army" consists of 7 warriors, a dog soldier and a galley

Power rating is not only about units. You get 1.000 soldiers per 2 population points. Military buildings also count towards military power. You'll still roll over Mansa ofc, but I just wanted to point that out.

I didn't really follow what great people you got (engineer from Mids is why you don't have an Academy?), but with PHI and this kind of food you should at least bulb 2*Edu+1*Lib and get 1 or 2 GM trade missions.

Anyways, looks like the game is in the bag (big surprise )

 

[Fippy]

245g for Lit might be better than 520g for CS, with such a useful AI like Mansa
It's possible that he offers more gold for trade later, or techs you can only get from him.

Basically you would sell CS (probably still monopoly tech in this game) for 275g, not terrible but also not great while 245 for Lit is full value.
It's good thinking that way for Imm and especially deity, where trade situations will be different.

 

[Wrathful]

Power rating is not only about units. You get 1.000 soldiers per 2 population points. Military buildings also count towards military power. You'll still roll over Mansa ofc, but I just wanted to point that out.

I didn't really follow what great people you got (engineer from Mids is why you don't have an Academy?), but with PHI and this kind of food you should at least bulb 2*Edu+1*Lib and get 1 or 2 GM trade missions.

Okay, that explains why he was at 0.7. My population is currently much higher than everyone else's. Hanging Gardens helped with that.

I got a Great Engineer from the Mids and settled it. I also got a Great Scientist at one point but decided to save it for bulbing.

About Mansa's gold: I was also afraid that he would trade Civil Service to everybody.
I was able to grab the rest of the gold anyway by giving him HBR. So it worked out well in the end.


I played through most of the Golden Age - it was very fun and exciting.

Spoiler To T127 :

Golden Age started. If everything goes well I will switch into slavery at the end and start getting out units quick.

Switched into Judaism and Pacifism.

T121: Got a GS in Chaco Canyon. I now have everyone I need to bulb Education. Need 1 more GS to bulb Liberalism.

Traded Mansa HBR for Archery and 250 gold.

This lets him build HAs, but I prefer those over skirmishers and spearmen. They're weaker against Cuirs.

I can't whip in Caste, but I can still chop!

Producing HAs in other cities too.

T123: Paper finished. Research set to Nationalism. 2 HAs produced so far. I sent them to scout out Mansa and Pacal.
Got 40 gold from trading my map around.

T124: Got my third GS. All the "bulbers" are ready.
Just need Compass and MC.
Mansa provides MC...

I have fewer reservations about giving him Philosophy because it doesn't unlock any military units. He can switch into Pacifism or build Angkor Wat if he wants, I wouldn't mind!

Justinian has Compass, but he's too stingy to trade it.

Look at all this unclaimed land! On Deity this would all be taken by now I imagine. Bismarck would be at 11 cities or so. Gandhi or Saladin could have grabbed some too.

T126: Got a Great Merchant. He should arrive at the ToA city in 8 turns.

Looks like I'll need 5 more turns to get another Great Merchant. Fair enough.


T127: Golden Age ends next turn. I will stop here for now.
I'm not going to switch to slavery yet. Snaketown needs 4 turns get another Great Merchant out. One turn of anarchy later is fine.
I currently have 6 Horse Archers. I'll get another next turn.
My workers are chopping forest, spreading irrigation, and improving my iron.

The lack of a Compass trade is a problem here. I'd like to avoid teching it myself if I can. It's 624 beakers which could be spent on Gunpowder.

Here's the rough plan:
Finish Nationalism > 2x bulb education > Get Gunpowder > Trade for Compass or self-tech it if I have to > Bulb Liberalism > Finish Lib (one bulb is not quite enough) > Pick MT > Kill Mansa

Will switch to slavery when the 2nd Great Merchant comes out I think.

PS: Nobody's built Chichen Itza yet, so I still have a pile of cash waiting for me in the future.

 

[Gumbolt]

Hopefully get 1100 gold from Constantinople as you have 3C commerce from him. Check with Mansa capital. It's mainly affected by buildings and trade routes. Certain buildings add 200 to it. If any capital offers 1100 I would take it.

3 GS to help bulb. You still need gunpowder.

Plenty of forest still to chop. Gold to upgrade HA. Ai still lack feud. If you need gold trade aesth too all AI? Gets you 210 gold?

4 turns from another GM. Maybe send to Mayans. Looking very good for 300ad. You will need feudalism here. That is hugely important to your win here.

If you want to speed up the Ai cap you need high power rating and huge war success. Lots of small but weak Ai here.

 

[Wrathful]

Certain buildings add 200 to it.

Temple of Artemis would be one of these, right? The problem is that the city in which it's built (Damascus) is pretty far away.

Perhaps the GM I have now can travel to the ToA city and check how much gold it would give. The 2nd great merchant can head to Mansa's capital, which is closer.

You will need feudalism here. That is hugely important to your win here.

I had not thought of Feudalism, but I agree that capitulating AIs would be much faster than wiping them out completely.
I will probably tech it after the war starts. It's not that expensive, so I should be able to get it fairly quickly.

If you want to speed up the Ai cap you need high power rating and huge war success. Lots of small but weak Ai here.

The key is to avoid losing units, right? I believe that the AI will think they are "winning" the war if they kill enough of your units. As for power rating, it should spike up when the Cuirs start being produced.
But these guys are very peaceful, so there shouldn't be much of a problem. The hardest guy to capitulate will probably be Saladin, but by the time I get to him my armies will be massive.

 

[dutchfire]

You know that you can check what a GM mission will give, right? I believe you need to do shift + right mouse click on the place you want to go, and then hover over the mission icon. (Your GM might have to be in a city for this to work)

 

[Wrathful]

You know that you can check what a GM mission will give, right?

I do now!
Trying this out...

It does not seem to be working. Only the bulb and golden age icons are visible.

Your GM might have to be in a city for this to work

Perhaps this is it. I will try it with my GM in a city next time I play.

 

[Pedro78]

245g for Lit might be better than 520g for CS, with such a useful AI like Mansa
It's possible that he offers more gold for trade later, or techs you can only get from him.

Basically you would sell CS (probably still monopoly tech in this game) for 275g, not terrible but also not great while 245 for Lit is full value.
It's good thinking that way for Imm and especially deity, where trade situations will be different.

I wouldn't sell monopoly-CS for 520 gold on deity in most cases, but in this situation it's just a faster win date so I'd take it. Doesn't matter in the end as OP got the rest of the gold for HBR

This lets him build HAs, but I prefer those over skirmishers and spearmen. They're weaker against Cuirs.

LOL. I really hope he gets at least Longbows by the time you have Cuirs. Because otherwise its gonna be SO boring

Your GM might have to be in a city for this to work)

Yup the GM HAS to be in a city for it to work, otherwise there simply ain't no trade mission icon.

 

[Wrathful]

Update to Liberalism.

Spoiler To T134 :

So I delayed the switch to slavery because I wanted to get another GM out and need the teching power. I am almost there. Only need the rest of Nationalism, Gunpowder, and Compass to get Military Tradition.

T128: Woah dude. Feeling a bit frisky today aren't we?

Yes, I'm very scared of you and your four cities...
Of course I gave it to him anyway. Free diplo points.

Sold Aesthetics and Literature to people for some cash.

Great Merchant would give 1100 gold from Timbuktu.

T129: Nationalism finished. Double-bulbed Education. Research set to Gunpowder. Hoping for a Compass trade.

T130: Got 9 HAs so far.
Starved Snaketown to get the GM 1 turn faster:

Hope I don't get an artist with a 2% chance!

T131: Iron connected to the empire. GM produced. Will stay in Caste for just a little while longer, then switch to slavery and begin the whipping madness.

A little thirsty for cash here. But I have a plan.

T132: Chichen Itza finished in Cahokia. Wait, what? Yep, I couldn't wait any longer for these AIs, so I finished it up in Cahokia and got failgold from my other cities that had worked on it.

Got 254 gold total. This will allow me to finish gunpowder.

T133: So it turns out that Damascus, the ToA city, gives 200 more gold from a trade mission. The first GM will go there, not sure about the second guy.
Got 1300 gold from first trade mission. Nice.

Saw something funny. Looks like Mansa wants to settle the tundra spot I had considered settling.

He has a swordsman fortified there.

Well, this means I can delete my fogbuster warrior to save cash. Gave me three gold per turn, that's a lot for one unit...

T134: Gunpowder finished. Research set to finish Compass in 1 turn. Next turn I will bulb Liberalism. 1 bulb does not finish it completely, so I will finish it with 2 turns of research or so.

T135: Compass finished. Bulbed Liberalism. 2 turns till it's done.

T136: Sold Mathematics to Gandhi for 240 gold. That's right, it's 520 AD and Gandhi doesn't know Math yet. Emperor AI.
Mansa does not have Feudalism yet, by the way. He's going for Engineering.

T137: Native America libs Military Tradition:

Research set to Feudalism for capitulations.

Upgraded 15 Horse Archers to Cuirassiers.

I got one last trade out of Mansa (before I kill him next turn):

Also got Drama from Gandhi for Compass.

Got another Great Scientist. I have no idea what to do with it. Any suggestions? Bulb Printing Press? Would get me slightly closer to Rifling.

I created 3 stacks. One will go to Kumbi Saleh and take it the turn I declare. Cuirs vs. Skirmishers = fun.

Main stack will head to Timbuktu.

Third stack will grab Niani (a minor city near Mound City).

Will switch into Slavery this turn and probably whip Cuirs until the end.

LOL. I really hope he gets at least Longbows by the time you have Cuirs. Because otherwise its gonna be SO boring

Nope, no longbows. He went for Machinery and Engineering. So we might see trebs!
Pacal got feudalism though, so he might be slightly harder when I kill him.

 

[Fippy]

Yup it's an easy game, you know and do a lot right already
Very good thread for newer players too, with the effort you put into reporting.

About Imm, it's mostly that AIs start with 1 worker now (on Emp they just get an extra archer or so).
Now starting with an archer build, then maybe a scout (even if they already have 1 ~~) hurts them much less..they can improve their tiles, building a road before doing so or similar random mistakes matter less while we are still slow building our first worker.
So it's where the games really start Imo they are not getting enuf on Emp to see some real differences when going up from Monarch.

 

[dutchfire]

With Engineering, you might also encounter pikemen. But usually not many.
It might be useful to play the early war turns slowly, then people can give some tips on military tactics.

 

[Pedro78]

Really great write-up all the way through

I really think your next game should be IMM on a continent-type map and with a weaker start+leader so you don't end up rolling over Archers with Cuirs, it's also interesting to experiment something else than the "standard" lib route

Edit - opened your T137 save, a few comments:

Spoiler :

• No lighthouse in Moundville??
• IMO you should switch back to Slavery + Police State (only one turn of anarchy), would allow to whip lighthouses in your offshore cities and produce Cuirs faster. Vass+Theocracy will also be good. Be careful as when you hit 13 cities switching 2 civics takes two turns instead of one.
• You should have done the relevant roading between your cities and towards Mansa/Pacal to optimize the Cuirs' movement

 

[elmurcis]

Isabella for Contador (Alberto thats from cycling..) crazy attacks..

 

[Wrathful]

About Imm, it's mostly that AIs start with 1 worker now (on Emp they just get an extra archer or so).
Now starting with an archer build, then maybe a scout (even if they already have 1 ~~) hurts them much less..they can improve their tiles, building a road before doing so or similar random mistakes matter less while we are still slow building our first worker.
So it's where the games really start Imo they are not getting enuf on Emp to see some real differences when going up from Monarch.

I agree. Emperor > Immortal looks like a much larger increase in difficulty than Monarch > Emperor for example. And then the jump to Deity is even bigger! I've read that going from Immortal to Deity is comparable to going from Noble all the way to Immortal.

The next game I post here will be Immortal. I think I will finish this one, play one more Emperor game offline, and then play my first ever Immortal game.

With Engineering, you might also encounter pikemen. But usually not many.

Ah, I had forgotten about pikemen. Well, he's getting Engineering in 5 turns, so the key is to kill him before then I guess.

It might be useful to play the early war turns slowly, then people can give some tips on military tactics.

Will do. (Although I'm not sure if this is a good war to learn from. Mansa didn't put up much resistance.)

I really think your next game should be IMM on a continent-type map and with a weaker start+leader so you don't end up rolling over Archers with Cuirs, it's also interesting to experiment something else than the "standard" lib route

Continents next sounds good. I will roll a few starts until I find a suitable one.

• No lighthouse in Moundville??

• IMO you should switch back to Slavery + Police State (only one turn of anarchy), would allow to whip lighthouses in your offshore cities and produce Cuirs faster. Vass+Theocracy will also be good. Be careful as when you hit 13 cities switching 2 civics takes two turns instead of one.

• You should have done the relevant roading between your cities and towards Mansa/Pacal to optimize the Cuirs' movement

Yes, sadly I was not able to get out a lighthouse in Moundville before I had to switch to Caste System. It couldn't grow very fast with only clam in the first ring, and I had no forest to chop for it. I can whip one when I switch into slavery.
I will switch into slavery and police state when the war starts.
My workers will work on roads during the war.


The war against Mansa Musa has begun.

Spoiler To T140 :

T138: Switched to Slavery and Police State.

Begged from Bismarck and Pacal. So they shouldn't be a problem.

Native America declares war on Mali:

Two Skirmishers in Kumbi Saleh. I take it without much resistance.

Same situation in Niani. 1 sword and 1 skirmisher.

Main stack advances on Timbuktu. Will move 1SE next turn to avoid attacking over the river.

T139: Got Feudalism from Justinian for Music. 0% research set to Engineering.
The sword I had shown earlier is causing problems. I can't chop that forest now. A stray Cuir will take care of him.

Whipped stuff everywhere.

Captured Timbuktu with 1 loss:

Did a little bit of forking action here. This stack can go for Djenne or Gao next turn. (Doesn't really matter though. I'm fighting ancient era units here.)

T140: Good news: just produced 4 more cuirs.
Bad news: Mansa traded for Feudalism. Little weasel.

Better kill him before he upgrades too much.

There's actually a decent number of units in Gao:

But it will fall like all the others.

Tried to take Djenne with two Cuirs. No losses, but one of my guys withdrew from combat. I could not take the city this turn.

Mansa will capitulate already. Should I take it now or capture Djenne and Gao first?

Actually, I think I will stop here. You can take a look at the save if you wish.

 

[Pedro78]

I'd just cap him and keep rolling. You can attack Pacal and Gandhi at the same time as they don't build many units and you have enough production. The game can be over within 15 turns here.

 

[Gumbolt]

The Ai have up to 7 cities each here. Yeah capping the Ai quickly seems best move here. Indians still lack feudalism so should be easy next target.

Get your workers to the front line. Roads and chopping forest.

Great general for super medic. At this point use teh c1 health cuir.

Overall I think this should be over pretty quickly. keep whipping cuirs and you want engineering as you can afford it. AI seem quite weak here.