'empty' isolated continent start

[LordBalkoth]

But if I steal 5 workers and you steal none, everything else being equal I will be 30-50% more effective in the game. That's how big a difference it makes. My starts will be much, much stronger.

Yes. That's...basically our point. We're all agreeing it's insanely strong for you to do and relatively cripples the AI. If it *didn't* we wouldn't be up in arms about it. The entire point is you get far too much payoff for far too little risk/cost.

Out of curiosity, did you ever play Perfect Dark 64 (an FPS)? They had a weapon called the Farsight which had X-Ray vision and could shoot through walls. It even had a mode where it automatically tracked enemies through walls and focused on them.

You're sounding like a person claiming that, all else equal, you'll be much more effective if you use the Farsight in a game when others don't. This is true. The Farsight was also incredibly broken.

And to be clear, you're hardly the only person on the forum to say things like that, not trying to single you out here.

Because war is all game long. Plus there is no obvious fix, short of a smarter AI. Stealing workers is okay -- after the game is underway. Stealing workers early is an exploit. Like most exploits, and unlike the human ability to control units better, the time window is very narrow and specific.

I think this is an excellent summary of the problem. Stealing workers after turn 50 is not a game changing event. Stealing a worker on turn 10-15 is. Though I would say it still falls into the realm of abuse and not actual exploit -- an exploit would be something like discovering that the AI is willing to give you 1000 gold for 6 gpt for some reason (but <6 gpt and >6 gpt act as expected).

I would love to see the early-worker-steal-from-AI recognized as a crutch. Something to get a player over the initial hurdle when they first start playing at a more difficult level. Maybe even something expected for GotM or other situations where people are competing for fewest numbers of turns.

It reminds me of seeing speed runs where people abuse the stuffing out of everything possible. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV-AWxqYAgc&feature=player_detailpage#t=2259

I don't mind the idea of people worker stealing to try to set some kind of record...I do mind the idea of it being some important skill to master that should be used if you're a good player.

I would argue that worker stealing is a human ability to recognise the importance of the most valuable unit in the game, and taking one away from an opponent. It doesn't feel cheap to me at all.

So you steal workers whenever possible throughout the entire game and constantly produce them yourself? It is the most valuable unit in the game in your own words.

I mean, the only thing better than 3 Stealth Bombers is 7 Stealth Bombers, right?

Could it just be that you are personally uncomfortable with it because you're not much of a warmonger?

Not at all. In a recent Deity game where I was intending on playing purely peaceful, Elizabeth declared war on me on turn 30 (I still have no idea why). She no longer existed like 60 turns later.

Is going to war with the AI (something that you MUST do if you want to win a DomV) 'a crutch'?

Let me ask you a question: let's say cities worked differently and they instantly were captured if attacked without a defending unit. Let's also say that 100% of the time you could immediately head to an AI Civ and capture their undefended capital before turn 10 because their units would be out exploring and doing other stuff (and by the time you could get to any other capital the Civ would have produced some units so it only works for the first).

Would you say that anyone who refused to do use that tactic was uncomfortable with warmongering?

Because I would say that anyone using that tactic was using a crutch.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Let me ask you a question: let's say cities worked differently and they instantly were captured if attacked without a defending unit. Let's also say that 100% of the time you could immediately head to an AI Civ and capture their undefended capital before turn 10 because their units would be out exploring and doing other stuff (and by the time you could get to any other capital the Civ would have produced some units so it only works for the first).

Would you say that anyone who refused to do use that tactic was uncomfortable with warmongering?

Because I would say that anyone using that tactic was using a crutch.

What are you talking about?? That is exactly the way Civ Revolution works for the Xbox or PS3!! I used to love that you could get an easy walk in if you got to an AI capital before turn 5! I used to do that all the time but of course Civ Rev isn't exactly what a Civ game should be it is more of a condensed version of Civ and everyone knows it doesn't compare to any of the PC versions.

 

[consentient]

Yes. That's...basically our point. We're all agreeing it's insanely strong for you to do and relatively cripples the AI.

Cripple is much too strong a word. It slows them down, but very often the civ that has its workers stolen still, through its massive Deity advantages, snowballs into a monster and needs to be dealt with. You make out as if stealing workers means its game over for them.

If it *didn't* we wouldn't be up in arms about it. The entire point is you get far too much payoff for far too little risk/cost.

Well you shouldn't be up in arms about anything related to a computer game, least of all this because it DOESN'T 'cripple' the AI.

Out of curiosity, did you ever play Perfect Dark 64 (an FPS)? The Farsight was also incredibly broken.

No, I haven't played it. But worker stealing is not broken. Liberty pillage-heal with Pyramids is broken. Do you condemn that in proportional terms?

I do mind the idea of it being some important skill to master that should be used if you're a good player.

Erm, no. You're not stopping at the point where you DON'T want it to be promoted as a skill. I've already told you that I'm not gonna recommend or insist you do anything you don't want to do. But you won't let up telling us we suck for doing it. You are being judgmental about something that in no way effects you. The easiest thing for you to do is just play your own game and stop harping on about it

Let me ask you a question: let's say cities worked differently and they instantly were captured if attacked without a defending unit. Let's also say that 100% of the time you could immediately head to an AI Civ and capture their undefended capital before turn 10 because their units would be out exploring and doing other stuff (and by the time you could get to any other capital the Civ would have produced some units so it only works for the first).

Would you say that anyone who refused to do use that tactic was uncomfortable with warmongering?

Because I would say that anyone using that tactic was using a crutch.

I would say anyone using that tactic was a bad player. Capturing of cities should be delayed until after T100 when there is a better chance they actually have anything good in them. One of the reasons my warmongering went up a notch is because I realised its better (easier) to take the 7 capitals between T100ish a T200ish than between T55 and T155. Since I play the game for fun, and am not yet some kind of Deity domination god where I can win every time, I like starting later and having an easier time of it. Strangely enough, the reason I always used to take Lisbon or Rio or Thebes on T60 was because my logic told me that starting earlier meant it would be easier. But not in most cases.

Btw, if the game was so stupid that empty cities could be instantly captured, I would be playing Civ II and would do with it what I did back then...find another game. The reason I enjoy Civ 5 so much is because its a complex game where you can pursue a wide range of play styles. On Deity, your choices are more limited, but still, discovering Honor-Commerce-Autocracy has really opened things up for me. Every strategy has the things it hinges on. SV needs pretty good dirt. CV is helped by position relative to the AI, for trade routes and religion, etc. Warmongering happens to be more effective if you DoW the AI on T5 and take his workers. That's all.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Well a SV needs good dirt but I wouldn't say PRETTY good dirt

 

[Acken]

I'm not sure what the argument is about in this thread. Worker steal is a big jump in economic power. But not doing it won't suddenly make the game impossible or completely confuse people that do it.

Who cares if someone does it or not. If you want to compare times without it just find someone that agrees to not do it.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Well, stealing 3 workers (I usually try to get that many) and sending them all to improve, say, a pair of Coppers you have around the cap (like in the Inca DCL) and all of a sudden the 2nd settler is out in 8 turns instead of 11 and with 3 workers you just saved yourself some 20+ turns of building, now you may use the gold from sold luxuries to buy a third settler or something and just shoot past the AIs. It's an unthinkably powerful thing. But everyone on here obviously knew this already or else where would I have seen it

 

[beetle]

I am still not seeing much advise for OP. Maybe there is not much to be done about an empty isolated continent start?

With that situation, I would:

• Barbs: Leave one camp for leveling up units. Usually I don&#8217;t feel like I have that luxury, so I snipe the camp for the 25 gold ASAP. Barb camps only spawn in the dark, and usually where they spawned before, so take advantage of that.
• Expos: Spread them out. Maybe found one or two more cities than usual (after NC)? I would want to pick up every unique lux, and not leave a single hex for one of the AIs to settle on later. OTOH, I don&#8217;t want more cities than necessary. You can block tiles with units, or leave one-only-one good spot (so the AI does not settle on the tip of peninsula like they like to do), and then conquer the city as soon as it is founded.
• Tech: Research sailing and then astronomy earlier than usual.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

Isolated starts suck.
I have played a few recently, and there is no way to make them great.
its funny, because in the vanilla game, even GnK isolation was desirable.
Turtle power.

Since your early science, economy rely directly on early diplomacy and trade routes, there is no fixing this. Try to make the most of it. Get those unique lux. Get a religion, get happiness from every source. Place trade units in each city to maximize connections to that one lonely CS. Growth focus and hope to meet some people asap.

Get a Coastal city ASAP.
Beeline the techs that get you to the new world (old world?) faster. Astronomy.
Prioritize exploration.
Build a navy.

certain civs never have anything to worry about (Polynesia), but aside from them, isolated starts can realy slow you down.

the ABSOLUTE WORST is when shaka is over there steamrolling the main continent and by the time you meet him, he has 25 cities and 5 capitols wrapped up. Prepare to be eaten alive.

this happened to me in a recent game, and it was a nightmare keeping shaka off my lonely continent after meeting him. we must have Dowed each other 5 times in the last 100 turns.

 

[vanatteveldt]

@beetle, maybe OP should engage in the discussion, or at least post the starting save?

 

[LordBalkoth]

Cripple is much too strong a word. It slows them down, but very often the civ that has its workers stolen still, through its massive Deity advantages, snowballs into a monster and needs to be dealt with. You make out as if stealing workers means its game over for them.

You don't think it, say, weakens them by 10-15%+ at the time? I'm not saying it suddenly becomes an Emperor AI, but it's not like a 2-3% decrease (at that point in the game).

No, I haven't played it. But worker stealing is not broken. Liberty pillage-heal with Pyramids is broken. Do you condemn that in proportional terms?

That's a trickier question. Why?

1, it's irrelevant unless you go to war offensively.
2, even if you do go to war offensively, in many of those cases it's still irrelevant (especially in later eras) because it won't actually help you (using 3+ range units and a mounted unit to swoop in at the end -- no one is taking damage that needs to be healed, naval combat, air units + paratrooper, etc).
3. even in the cases that it's relevant, you still need to have several workers to spare (which could have been used to make more units -- especially when a worker or another composite bowman basically have the same hammer cost)

On the flip side, worker stealing is ALWAYS relevant no matter what type of game you're wanting to play (because it's so quickly forgotten -- doubly so with the reduced warmonger penalty early on).

Do I like the Liberty Pillage/Repair bit? No. Do I even like the non-Liberty Pillage/Repair bit? No. But it's a much smaller concern in general.

In comparison, it feels like I'm constantly seeing (on these forums) people saying to other people "Hey, good job winning <difficulty> -- and if you're wanting to improve your game and step it up to the next level, one of the things you need to get better at is worker stealing."

I've already told you that I'm not gonna recommend or insist you do anything you don't want to do.

You aren't. Many others are. And to be clear, I don't mean that they're saying it to me specifically, I'm saying that they're saying it to everyone.

Btw, if the game was so stupid that empty cities could be instantly captured

Why is that necessarily so stupid? It simply forces the player to guard each city with a minimum of one unit (so if you want 10 cities, you need at least 10 military units to be completely safe -- though you could probably get away with having just the border cities secured).

I'm not trying to argue that such a system would be inherently better, just that it's not as mind-boggling stupid as you seem to think.

 

[tombakerwho]

The developer practically put a tutorial in the game that tells you that worker stealing is part of the game. That is why the barbarians steal your workers. They are literally timed to spawn and attempt steals when you pop your first settler/worker. I don't understand where this view comes from that it is exploiting the AI. The AI does not hesitate to steal my workers.

There are penalties for stealing, there is risk/reward because your warrior can die, it makes the spear upgrade a good ruin. It is by design. And, most importantly, it is FUN! Therefore, I am not going to feel bad about doing it, as I play the game to have FUN.

At the dawn of civilization, the rules of behavior were a little less politically correct. I would recommend you stop overthinking it, and embrace your inner Montezuma. When I am at war with the AI, I will capture as many as possible and sell them for gold, or sometimes just kill them for the sport of it, or tell them to swim all the way across the ocean into a barb camp, for safe keeping

 

[consentient]

1, it's irrelevant unless you go to war offensively.
2, even if you do go to war offensively, in many of those cases it's still irrelevant (especially in later eras) because it won't actually help you (using 3+ range units and a mounted unit to swoop in at the end -- no one is taking damage that needs to be healed, naval combat, air units + paratrooper, etc).
3. even in the cases that it's relevant, you still need to have several workers to spare (which could have been used to make more units -- especially when a worker or another composite bowman basically have the same hammer cost)

I'll grant you (1.) but (2.) helps you all the time. Pillage is not just about healing. It is about gold. The fact is that it makes no sense in terms of lore to heal another civs tiles. Imagine the Russian army cleaning up a farm and making it workable again, then razing it to the ground as per their original scorched earth policy. And repeating this.

If I have full Honor-Commerce and Liberty with tile improvement, and I've captured the Pyramids, this makes me have practically unlimited gold. As for (3.) having spare workers, I take it from this that you aren't much of a warmonger at all. I often have 30+ workers, almost all of whom will be at the front line because there's almost nothing for them to do back home. Growth is stagnating in my original cities and they are just building Wealth.

That's why I asked you whether you condemn it in the same terms. You ought to, if you are being consistent. It's completely broken.

 

[claudiupb]

I don't think the act of worker stealing is an exploit, but the way the AI behaves afterward can be considered an exploit. You can DoW when you see an undefended settler coming to forward settle you (or settle in any area you are scouting), steal another worker, after a while get a peace deal while selling embassy for full price, and if you are lucky, with a trade deal or two, you can eventually get a DoF with that same AI! That is a huge exploit considering you have crippled that AI from an early city and a great number of tile improvements (and you got 2 workers out of it!)

 

[Acken]

Well we all would like a less stupid AI.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I don't think the act of worker stealing is an exploit, but the way the AI behaves afterward can be considered an exploit. You can DoW when you see an undefended settler coming to forward settle you (or settle in any area you are scouting), steal another worker, after a while get a peace deal while selling embassy for full price, and if you are lucky, with a trade deal or two, you can eventually get a DoF with that same AI! That is a huge exploit considering you have crippled that AI from an early city and a great number of tile improvements (and you got 2 workers out of it!)

When I tried that once, AI panicked and settled in place. I'd assume that's only consistent if they meant to settle that tile anyway, otherwise, wow that's some good defense

edit: Actually, I kind of misread that, you said undefended settler, in which case yeah I nicked those every time I saw them

 

[beetle]

That's why I asked you whether you condemn it in the same terms. You ought to, if you are being consistent. It's completely broken.

It may well be that I am significantly underestimating how much people are exploiting pillage-heal-repair. I agree that it is a broken game mechanic. I find it less troubling than the early worker steal for a few reasons.

1. It is not limited to early game, so that makes it feel less like an exploit.
2. It is not specifically targeted at undoing one of the main buffs the AI gets at harder levels.
3. It does not hurt the AI. The gold comes out of the air. (Yeah, broken.)
4. I don&#8217;t think it is game changing. (But maybe I have not tried it hard enough?) Aggressive or lucky early worker steals can make things so much easier!
5. I don&#8217;t see it being advocated (on these forums) as a basic core strategy worthy of emmulation. (It is more just something people make others aware of.)

I don't think the act of worker stealing is an exploit, but the way the AI behaves afterward can be considered an exploit.

Well, you cannot separate the two. First, you take away a bunch of early hammers and give them to yourself. Then, to add insult to injury, the AI reacts in completely counter-productive ways.

 

[consentient]

Liberty pillage heal may not be game-changing, but in the same way that worker stealing accelerates the early game, it accelerates the mid-game. If terrain is right, it allows you to have enough gold to buy units in captured cities AND keep all your current units at full strength without losing promotions. It's like having a free March x50 on all units. This means that there doesn't need to be any pause at all, and you can do like 4 capitals in 20 turns if you play it right.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Abusing is exploiting a broken game feature to win.
The Civ5 AI is broken in many aspects.
Stop abusing Civ, stop winning against the AI

 

[beetle]

We are still mostly OT wrt OP.

Liberty pillage heal may not be game-changing, but in the same way that worker stealing accelerates the early game, it accelerates the mid-game. If terrain is right, it allows you to have enough gold to buy units in captured cities AND keep all your current units at full strength without losing promotions. It's like having a free March x50 on all units. This means that there doesn't need to be any pause at all, and you can do like 4 capitals in 20 turns if you play it right.

I don’t disagree with that at all. But you have asked a couple times why early-worker-steal is an exploit, but pillage-heal-repair not so much. I am just trying to explain.

 

[consentient]

Yes, we are OT. I personally sent a message to the admin a few days ago asking them to split the thread and merge our abuse discussion in with one of the umpteen previous abuse discussions. I am sure they will do it eventually.