Empyrian-Severely Underpowered

[smana]

The empyrian are nice at first with their Radiant Guards and Rathas for no buildings and blinding light and seeing invisible and have a decent hero, but they and CoE are the only religions to only have one hero. The Rathas and radiant guard become weak, and the only thing that remains effective is Chalid, but he isn't that great.
All the Empyrian really do is counter CoE with their revalations spell. they are useless

 

[Breunor]

I'll repost what I said in the Paramanders and Crusaders thread on 4/22/2011. I find Empyrean very powerful sometimes:

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Empyrean is interesting. As you said, Chalid is so powerful that IF you get him, he can be a game changer.

However, at very high levels the radiant guards and rathas are really good, although it is somewhat of a bad AI exploit. That is, when the enemy SoD has 600 units and you have your highly promoted 70 guys, the RG's and rathas use blinging light, freeze the enemy stack in place, and your guys start whittling down the enemy stack.

But I do kind of agree with you. I find Empyrean is either TOO GOOD (the blinging light exploit is too good or Chalid simply wins the game) or not good enough without much of a middle position.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

dear Mr. smana,

how is Chalid "not so great" ? please explain.

I've never once lost a game once I got him out.

 

[nabaxo]

Chalid in your stack with a few high priests of Empyrean (luridus?) and your just "roflstomp" everything. The Empyrean has without a doubt the most powerful hero in the game in my not so humble opinion.

 

[BvBPL]

Having one really great hero and some great national units isn’t a complete panacea for Empyrean’s woes. Only one civ can obtain Chalid and once he’s accounted for there’s significantly less incentive to adopt Empyrean. In addition, vicars take a healthy amount of time to mature into Luridus for non-spiritual leaders, and by the time you get them the game might already be decided.

I do think that radiant guards are far from useless though. Yes, they do become outclassed by champions, but that isn’t horrible because radiant guards upgrade to champions so you can build a few radiant guards, upgrade them to champions, and then have a stack that can cast blinding light. Similarly while Rathas are “only” as powerful as chariots, they have a rare bonus to fighting recon units. This is a situational benefit to be sure, but most of the religions have strong situational uses.

As for revelation, yea, I wish I did more, but any counter to shadows or, Infernal help you, Angels of Death is more than welcome. One annoyance I do have with revelation is that it doesn’t reveal units hidden under Nox Noctis’s veil ability.

It might be fair to say that Empyrean w/o Chalid is the weakest religion, but something has to be.

--

One option to boost Empyrean would be to allow ecclesiastics to upgrade into radiant guards. This would give Empyrean a strong disciple-based fighting unit similar to RoK’s paramanders and the Order’s crusaders, however it is really only exploitable by players (ie not the AI) and it would give altar focused players a sick, sick advantage. Toying with this notion, you might be able to balance it out by making RGs strength seven disciple units w/ no metal, similar to crusaders, but that basically becomes a rehash of RoK and the Order.

More interesting would be an additional building for Empyrean civs, maybe a happiness increasing one, either by reducing war weariness and the “we want to return to the motherland” unhappiness, or just giving a straight up happiness boost. Such a building might also give a minor science, culture, or maintenance boost. Or, even better, maybe Empyrean civs could choose from a stable of several different buildings that provide such a boost, but could only construct one in any given Empyrean city. So, science boost in one city, trade boost in another, happiness in a third.

 

[smana]

Chalid is nice, and by far the biggest advantage, but what is he when there is a 19 stregnth Sphener? or a Hemah who can cast all spells available to an archmage and has hero ? or Valid Rosier or Saverous or Bambur one tech away from the tech needed to found? or Gibbon who requires just the tech for founding and a tech that comes at around the same time? or Mardero who can bring down hell on the holy guys? or any of the other heroes that have their own unique abilities and although most aren't as good as Chalid, some are, and they are not their religion's only heroes. Blinding light is a spell almost always resisted, better use druids when you can. Crown of Brilliance is fine, but a kraken is better. Empyrian is better than no religion, but most religions are better than Empyrian

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

none of the other heroes has an area of effect damage comparable to crown of brilliance + pillar of fire... and area of effect damage is the name of the game in FFH due to no cap to units affected and the AI loving stacks of doom. in MP it may be a little less useful, but... still devastating. the only things coming close to it are dwarven druids and high priests of winter.

 

[S.K. Ren]

Bwahahaha.... hah, let me catch my breath. I laughed so hard I cried. Empyrean has one of the strongest (non- AC dependent) heroes in the game - some others being Yvain, Eurabatres, Drifta, Abashi, Auric Ascended, etc. - they don't need another one. Next, their Priest unit, the Luridis, has access to one of the 4 most powerful abilities in the game: Crush, Snowfall, Pillar of Fire and Crown of Brilliance. The Radiant Guard and Rathas are meant to supplement your T2 units until you get priests up. FoL is recon, RoK is religious (With the exception of Mithril Casting for the Golem), AV is caster, Order is religious, OO is Religious, and CoE is archer based. Emp is a heavy detour from the religious path, which it excels in, so they give you easy T2 to make up for it.

 

[Fraulzar]

Empyrean underpowered? The argument can be made and it merits a valid discussion.

Severely underpowered? More like severely hyperbolic.

 

[smana]

ok let me rephrase that: The Empyrian is a tiny bit underpowered but please don't argue with me because i obviously didn't start this thread for a debate.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so you just wanted to state your almighty opinion without it being torn to shreds by more knowledgeable players? sorry for that

 

[avalonnn]

On SP, Empyrean allows you to:

• Freeze SoD (but you need to cast blinding light several times).
  
• Get an extra vote on the Overcouncil.
  
• Cast Pillar of Fire with Chalid -- and also Valor.
  
• Reveal Hidden Units with the holy city.
  
• Build unique magic-casting mounted units that can survive and gain XP.

On MP, I assume that players would take one or more of these advantages away from you.

 

[smana]

so you can't detect irony? sorry

 

[smana]

the empyrian don't have a unique civic nor tech along with the CoE who aren't as underpowered because you can wage secret war much easier with them

 

[Aline]

I would concider CoE weaker than Empy, it has less stomping power and in multiplayer its very few advantages, HN and Invis, are fairly useless.
Acctualy the only reason for me to go CoE is the erly archmage and its shrine, probly the best of all of them.

 

[BvBPL]

I can certainly see how CoE would be weaker in multiplayer. Of course, you still need CoE for shadows though.

 

[Breunor]

I can certainly see how CoE would be weaker in multiplayer. Of course, you still need CoE for shadows though.

Don't you just need CoE in the city? I don't think you need to adopt it.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[BvBPL]

Yes, you are correct Breunor. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

 

[Selrahc]

Blinding Light is a fantastic spell. Ratha will always be useful, as a unit who can blind and run is always good.

Chalid is a *really* good hero. Better than Sphener. Better than Mardero. Better than a heroic archmage for anyone without the summoner trait.

Empyrean high priests are good, although not the best.

Empyrean temples are good, although not the best.

The Empyrean Shrine is good. Sun mana is nice, free xp is nice, seeing invisibility is nice.

Empyrean priests are kind of rubbish. Empyrean Radiant Guard aren't all that great either, since Ratha's will probably deliver all the blinding you need, but they do offer you the option of upgrades.

Empyrean is a really useful religion, all in all. Its units are all support units rather than being main fighters, but they are all useful.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Empy has crummy T2 priests, but that's really the only thing it lacks. The Temples are probably 2nd or 3rd best, the Shrine is probably 2nd or 3rd best, the religion-specific nonpriest units are the best, the high priests are the best (though this doesn't count for much because Theology is such a slog to get to), and the Hero situation is at LEAST in the conversation for the best--Chalid is clearly the best in my mind, but it's debatable whether Chalid > (Sphener + Valin).