Enemy troops in same square as mine during war?

[Blackmantle]

@ Willgar: Indeed it should have at least some drawback. Nox-Nocturnis is easiely my favorite shrine now. It offers so much (and always defending actively yields much more XP as well which is another important perk)
Though you have to radically adjust the way you defend (more spread- out with Units good on offensive instead of defensive) and to build up your infrastructure / lay of the land (chokepoints should offer bad defense like desert instead of good one like forested hills and roads should only be in your central empire / used for big transit-routes with wildlands surounding it so raiders do get slowed down before reaching your infrastructure) + be alot more aware on defense to get most out of it.
Scorch really is a godsend for setting up a choke and slowdown zone around your infrastructure then.

The no-counter constant implementation should be fixed though if it doesn't produce big problems. Its just ridicculous.
At least Hawks (preferably in an alongside nerfed implementation as they are also completely riddiculously owerpowered), Revelers, Sand-Lions and the like should be able to spot what is going on for a small area. Otherwise the Area of a Civ with the Esus-Shrine is no-go unless you really like your units dying.

 

[Svantotvit]

Hmm, yeah but that still leaves the other problem Magister already mentioned: at the moment there's absolutely no reason to adopt CoE as your state religion. You can get (almost) all of it's perks by building the shrine...

So apart from the no-counter question I would agree with Magister that the invisibility effect of the Nox Noctris should only apply when you actually have CoE as state religion.

 

[Blackmantle]

Backstabbing your oponents with impunity and having decent diplomacy with everyone + the games earliest Archmage qualify as absoloutely no reason for you? (and CoE might very well not have reached its final implementation with reagards to disguise)

CoE is one of my favorite religions for adopting (albeit later after running another religion first, but thats in line with its theme) because of it! If it doesn't fit your playstyle fine (it greathly favors builder-style of play) but please don't generalize.

Shadowriders are nice as well for Lategame.
Steal is broken right now becuase you can't steal the lyre and the crown. But that might change as well later.

 

[Svantotvit]

I know you think so Blackmantle, I read your posts in the thread discussing this. However, while I would agree that it is mainly a question of playstyle there have been lots of very good arguments for boosting CoE simply because it's a bit weak (at least in the benefits is gives you as a state religion) when compared to other religions.

But as these have been extensively discussed elsewhere I won't reiterate them here. As I said you are right, it's just that I like CoE a lot and mostly adopt it for style reasons so I would prefer it if some of their advantages would actually be their advantages

 

[Blackmantle]

Im not against that proposal per se.
Even though im not strongly in favor of it i think at least some consideration could be put into that thought. (deis dei should stay the way it is though no matter what is done to nox-nocturnis. Its perk is not all that powerful in comparison unlike the advantages of adopting Empyrean) But it could pose some problems from a coding point of view besides balance which is arguable as seen.

Just wanted to intervene against the strong statement you made which is a bit over the top i reckon.

 

[xienwolf]

Some "Out of the Box" ideas for this now frequent complaint / false bug report:


1) Nox Noctis also makes your Improvements (and possibly even resources) invisible. The only thing anyone else can see is roads, Cities, and Units that are in the Cities.


2) Provide a spell available to all Units if your State Religion is Council of Esus that does tremendous damage to Hostile Units, but has no range. This means that the only time you can cast the spell is when the enemy is standing on the same tile as you. Thus you would WANT them to come after your improvements, because your units can then unleash this powerful spell to cause horrific damage to their units.

Side benefit of option 2 is that it would work for ALL invisible units, even Shadows & Giant Spiders outside of your territory if you are lucky enough to have an opponent move onto their tile.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Some "Out of the Box" ideas for this now frequent complaint / false bug report:


1) Nox Noctis also makes your Improvements (and possibly even resources) invisible. The only thing anyone else can see is roads, Cities, and Units that are in the Cities.

Features wouldn't be invisible though, right? I certainly wouldn't want invisible flames. That would cause way too many bug reports.

I still say that the effect of Nox Noctis should only apply when the owner has the COE state religion, and that there should be some way to counter it. I'm thinking it would be good for it to grant a different type of invisibility than INVISIBLE_LAND or INVISIBLE_ANIMAL, but for at least one (probably Empyrean) unit to be able to see through it.

2) Provide a spell available to all Units if your State Religion is Council of Esus that does tremendous damage to Hostile Units, but has no range. This means that the only time you can cast the spell is when the enemy is standing on the same tile as you. Thus you would WANT them to come after your improvements, because your units can then unleash this powerful spell to cause horrific damage to their units.

Side benefit of option 2 is that it would work for ALL invisible units, even Shadows & Giant Spiders outside of your territory if you are lucky enough to have an opponent move onto their tile.

If you could make it so that the "Ambush" spell uses actual combat odds then this could be quite nice. I wouldn't want a worker to be able to take down a Phalanx though.

 

[rocklikeafool]

this is not a good 'feature' - the clan are now pillaging my lands and troops that i station on guard duty at key resources are useless - How/Why is this invisibility a benefit to me when playing against the AI?

It only is a benefit in the AI's lands. This is the reason, sides the gold required to spread it (hey, I like my gold, man -- leave me lone!), that I don't like CoE. It doesn't work as well as it should, imho. So, maybe we should suggest Kael improve it. Someone get Kael to read this.

 

[Willgar]

It only is a benefit in the AI's lands. This is the reason, sides the gold required to spread it (hey, I like my gold, man -- leave me lone!), that I don't like CoE. It doesn't work as well as it should, imho. So, maybe we should suggest Kael improve it. Someone get Kael to read this.

Think you missed a quote m8 ... have to admit i was wrong and a few post back i stated that


Having played through this game (just gone past turn 400) and i have to agree that Nox Noxis is a powerfull trait. My intial annoyance was because i had setup a well thought out static defence using choke points, mountain ranges, forts etc. As i am playing as the Ljosalfar with many archers and sadly no catapults - my long term strategy was not a conquest victory. Instead, my aim was to expand and gain a economic lead, defend my borders, grab a few vassals and either edge a cultural or altar victory. Any wars would be defend and high mobility raiding to cripple the economy of any would be aggressor.

I would make one suggestion, could the Nox Noxis turn off for units that have the full fortfy bonus or that are stationed in a fort? This would solve the all of the issues but potentially might make it a little too powerfull.

I am starting to think that this limititaion is actually a "Working as intended" because otherwise it would be a bit too overpowered....

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't see what's the problem with not being able to "defend" when under the effects of Nox Noctis. "Defending" takes many forms, some more loose than others.

 

[Darksaber1]

It means you can strick when you want, and your mage's can summon fireballs and Elementals, and the Enimy can't find your mage's to kill them. Tip: move them every turn, since the new AI might figure out where you are hidding.

 

[Dora190]

Apologies double post - see below

 

[Dora190]

why not allow two promotions, one to remove the invisibility and one to return to it, like mask and declare nationality. CoE units can then choose to defend. It also allows for setting traps and ambushes.

And why is CoE considered underpowered? It has a lot of advantages contains some good units. If people are that worried about that lake of priests give them another unit. Having more than one nightwatch or a shadowrider is a bit of a giveaway anyway.

 

[Demus]

why not allow two promotions, one to remove the invisibility and one to return to it, like mask and declare nationality. CoE units can then choose to defend. It also allows for setting traps and ambushes.

And why is CoE considered underpowered? It has a lot of advantages contains some good units. If people are that worried about that lake of priests give them another unit. Having more than one nightwatch or a shadowrider is a bit of a giveaway anyway.

you don't need to run CoE to get most of it's benefits. Shadows and the nox noctis + undercouncil for example don't require you to have CoE as state religion, you just need 1 city with CoE present (or in the case of nox noctis, you need nox noctis).
I usually tech both honor and deception (they're practically at the same spot anyway), turn empyrean for my primary religion, and keep CoE underneath for the shrine and shadows

 

[rocklikeafool]

I use OO as my religion. But I always try to found or conquer the CoE Holy City. That way I control Nox Noctis and usually the Undercouncil vote. Then, if I want more Nightwatch, I usually get it.

But since I prefer all-out war to sneakin round (look at my sig, man ), I don't like CoE as my main religion.