England Nerf? Why?

[stealth_nsk]

I think we should hold judgement until we see how powerful +4 loyalty for a royal dock yard is. It might be really strong or unimportant.

It's half of a governor. Whether it's important or not depends on whether there's a strong foreign influence in place. If the loyalty system it working (and from live streams it looks like it does), +4 should be significant.

 

[JustifierNA]

Came across this, and I'd like to bring this to attention

https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/7t399c/rf_plase_give_england_back_its_trade_route/

England can currently stack trade routes with a commercial hub using their harbor. Regular harbors do not do this, and they're taking it away. Before it gave England a lot of money and possibly production to counter their lack of early game bonuses and tendency to start on crappy coast.

England was not that strong to begin with, but they were in a decent spot, so why pick on them? I could name half a dozen civs which could use the nerf bat, and they're not even DLC!

Hello, if you want to hear it from Firaxis yourself here's exactly why they "nerfed England".

This is an issue that's across the board so they've smacked down pretty hard on it, which is good for the total quality of the game. England will still be one of the strongest civs for trade routes
HOWEVER, they're not going to be stupid-busted with their 1/2 cost harbor spam and quadrillion trade routes while every other civ takes a hit.

Regarding your opinion of England not being that strong her bonuses are comparable to that of America only more snowbally in a very literal sense. Her ability to gain more forces while attacking another civilization who is on a different continent simply because she captured a city is insanely powerful. personally, I rate her quite high on my personal "Tier List" ranking pretty much equal to America. She is a financial powerhouse that has a literal snowball mechanic, though terrain dependent is still extremely strong. Currently in the right hands with the current game I'd say she's actually too strong though I may change my opinion in the R&F expansion

 

[Archon_Wing]

Eh? Never said England was bad lol. Not that strong is not the same as weak. I thought I said decent spot? Also I don't think America is a good comparison anyways as they're not that special.

I mean, it's not like I didn't know. This was the game I just finished.

And no i didn't stack many commercial hubs either and I really wish the unit list was longer since I didn't build any of these infantry.

 

[JustifierNA]

Eh? Never said England was bad lol. Not that strong is not the same as weak. Also I don't think America is a good comparison anyways as they're not that special.

I mean, it's not like I didn't know. This was the game I just finished.

And no i didn't stack many commercial hubs either and I really wish the unit list was longer since I didn't build any of these infantry.

I can see that by turn 300 I'd have like 70 Trade Routes playing as England (likely more if I find Carthage in the game)

I think America is a great comparison because they're both continent-based playstyles simply with opposite goals: America wants to control his continent, England wants to control other people's continents

 

[acluewithout]

Does anyone know if there is any upside to having ‘surplus’ loyalty? For example, surplus amenities makes a city more productive - does surplus loyalty boost anything?

If there was a bonus, then the loyalty boost from a RND would be more valuable.

As it is, my guess is that all surplus loyalty means is a city applies more pressure to surrounding cities, and it possibly frees up a governor to be used elsewhere in your empire.

 

[JustifierNA]

Does anyone know if there is any upside to having ‘surplus’ loyalty? For example, surplus amenities makes a city more productive - does surplus loyalty boost anything?

If there was a bonus, then the loyalty boost from a RND would be more valuable.

As it is, my guess is that all surplus loyalty means is a city applies more pressure to surrounding cities, and it possibly frees up a governor to be used elsewhere in your empire.

I don't think it works like that.

Think of the 0-100 Loyalty bar as a "Health" bar, as such you won't be able to "heal" over 100 for all other purposes it's just a pressure-based yield like Religion's

 

[Victoria]

+4 should be significant.

Let’s be very clear about this, the main risk with cities is in a dark age, that +4 loyalty is the same as having an additional 8 citizens in a DA.

The huge downside of England is often a granary is needed as well. So let’s assume by the time a RNDY is chopped in the pop averages 2. That’s 3 cities at +6 loyalty, +14 if you send 3 governors, so 36 loyalty pressuring say a CS 7 tile on average away. That 10 pressure at huge expense against a CS that is likely already got 10 pop. And that +4 does not rise in a golden age. But if you settle in a golden age with Hic Sunt then your pop is 4 and you get +2 so your new cities are +9 from pop and +6 from loyalty +8 from governor = 69 * 0.3 = 20 pressure.
Of course it’s all fantasy ATM and the reality is that a hell of a lot of investment mid game for a city flip.

 

[acluewithout]

My guess is that the loyalty bonus (+ Victoria’s free unit) will let England better hold on to coastal cities it grabs via settling or conquest; but won’t actually help England grab new cities otherwise without lots of investment or cracking good luck.

...What they did was take the lazy way out and completely removed the harbour bonus...

One ‘lazy’ solution would be to have a RND give +1 extra trade route for every X harbours with a lighthouse. With X being whatever number makes England good but not OP. Like, maybe every 3...?

 

[JustifierNA]

Let’s be very clear about this, the main risk with cities is in a dark age, that +4 loyalty is the same as having an additional 8 citizens in a DA.

The huge downside of England is often a granary is needed as well. So let’s assume by the time a RNDY is chopped in the pop averages 2. That’s 3 cities at +6 loyalty, +14 if you send 3 governors, so 36 loyalty pressuring say a CS 7 tile on average away. That 10 pressure at huge expense against a CS that is likely already got 10 pop. And that +4 does not rise in a golden age. But if you settle in a golden age with Hic Sunt then your pop is 4 and you get +2 so your new cities are +9 from pop and +6 from loyalty +8 from governor = 69 * 0.3 = 20 pressure.
Of course, it’s all fantasy ATM and the reality is that a hell of a lot of investment mid game for a city flip.

Something else to consider is Amenities (and so luxuries). According to Marbz each amenity counts as 3 Loyalty so obviously more amenities means much more loyalty buuut you can't control which cities those luxuries are distributed to but still interesting stuff there

 

[Victoria]

Something else to consider is Amenities (and so luxuries). According to Marbz each amenity counts as 3 Loyalty so obviously more amenities means much more loyalty buuut you can't control which cities those luxuries are distributed to but still interesting stuff there

... well, some entertainment and water sports will prove fair amount of ‘amenities’ locally. There are also other amenity cards so it would s possible to pump the loyalty.

 

[UWHabs]

The other thing to consider is the fact that there's a new water district does mean there's a slightly larger chance of being able to get an extra Harbor adjacency late in the game. Obviously that extra +1 at that stage won't matter too much, but having a few more options for the water does help the naval/harbor folks. Of course, on the flipside, with added Reefs as well, it will start crowding more spots on the water.

 

[stealth_nsk]

... well, some entertainment and water sports will prove fair amount of ‘amenities’ locally. There are also other amenity cards so it would s possible to pump the loyalty.

Yep, but the luxury auto-distributor will compensate this by moving luxuries from those cities to cities who need more amenities. I don't think it takes loyalty into account. Would be unfair to make automatic algorithm juggle two parameters.

 

[Pythakoreas]

but the irony of Americans dumping tea into a Royal Navy Dockyard that's clearly not generating Loyalty is pretty funny...

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Eh? Never said England was bad lol. Not that strong is not the same as weak. I thought I said decent spot? Also I don't think America is a good comparison anyways as they're not that special.

I mean, it's not like I didn't know. This was the game I just finished.

And no i didn't stack many commercial hubs either and I really wish the unit list was longer since I didn't build any of these infantry.

Urrr... A screenshot at T300 doesn't make any sense in fact. It does not show anything.

Even with the worst Civ, at T200 you can occupy the whole map, research all techs, having all wonders built... I mean, settle the whole map with 100+ cities, including polar snow areas, and leave the map with no space for further settlers. While having 100+ trade routes. At that time every settler cost 2,000+ prods, but you can still afford it, just because you have too much time. (And this is only effects of 200 turns)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Cool.

I didn't conquer early on so obviously the numbers aren't too fancy.

 

[Victoria]

Yep, but the luxury auto-distributor will compensate this by moving luxuries from those cities to cities who need more amenities

Are you sure?... or are the luxuries distributed first and then the local. Regardless +3 local amenities is something.

 

[pgm123]

What a harbour is to me up until now realistically, is half a commercial hub. It gets the adjacency (yes it does, I play them, you decide where to settle) but does not get CS bonuses. So it’s sort of not half price because it gets half of what other districts get... but it does get it early and the other bits of the harbour are unique.

A maritime CS giving bonuses to harbors would be nice.

 

[Victoria]

Bring on the Maritime CS!
+1science/+1culture?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

In fact I don't quite consider this a nerf. Normally we don't build Commercial Hubs, so there's actually no nerf for trade route issues apart from the general Harbor nerf that moves the trade route to lighthouse.

But the RND gives some loyalty instead, making England much better at holding newly-captured cities in a new continent. So, is it really a "nerf"?

 

[NegativeZero]

Despite losing double trade routes for +4 loyalty harbors, I think England has gained quite a bit in R&F.

• Renya's curator (+100% tourism from great works) will be really handy late game with auto-themed museums that hold twice as many artifacts. Toss in National History museum (+4 great works) and % tourism yields in that city look juicy.

• Pax Britannica (free melee unit on settling a different continent) + Ancestral Hall (+50% production to settlers, and free builder in new city) looks strong. The builder will certainly help food/production yields and housing for coastal settles. If Classical republic (gov or legacy card) is tossed in, England could skip over a grainy as their half price harbor and builder improvements may get them enough early housing.

• Added sea resources and features (reef) will help coastal settles.

• Dark Policy: Letter's of Marque (+100% production to navel raiders, +2 movement, -2 trade routes) should be useful to producing Sea Dogs to reap the seas with.