England Nerf? Why?

Even with the worst Civ, at T200 you can occupy the whole map, research all techs, having all wonders built... I mean, settle the whole map with 100+ cities, including polar snow areas, and leave the map with no space for further settlers. While having 100+ trade routes. At that time every settler cost 2,000+ prods, but you can still afford it, just because you have too much time. (And this is only effects of 200 turns)

I gotta say, I have no idea how you folks can zip through the game so fast. I would be curious to know what game settings you start with in order to totally saturate the map with 100 cities by turn 200. While I admit I have never played for speed, I didn't think such speed was even possible. Even if I play aggressive, I don't think I've had more than 10 or 15 cities by turn 200.

So are you talking small map? Quick game speed? I'm just curious because I would not have even thought it possible.
 
I gotta say, I have no idea how you folks can zip through the game so fast. I would be curious to know what game settings you start with in order to totally saturate the map with 100 cities by turn 200. While I admit I have never played for speed, I didn't think such speed was even possible. Even if I play aggressive, I don't think I've had more than 10 or 15 cities by turn 200.

So are you talking small map? Quick game speed? I'm just curious because I would not have even thought it possible.

Standard speed, standard map games. You can check Gotm 20 if you want an example.
 
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Bring on the Maritime CS!
+1science/+1culture?

What they'd give? It would be bonuses like a cross between Commercial Hub and Encampment, so production and gold. But the suzerain bonuses could be quite interesting.
 
Bring on the Maritime CS!
+1science/+1culture?

I'd like to see something different like: initial +2 food and housing w/ building tiers. I'd want those coastal cities to be ideal places to support specialists. Now if a wonder/LA/civ/city-state increased specialist slots per district/building, that would be great.
 
Are you sure?... or are the luxuries distributed first and then the local. Regardless +3 local amenities is something.

In vanilla luxuries are distributed to level the amenities of the cities after all local factors, AFAIC. Don't know about R&F.
 
I think a good compromise (of sorts) would be that England gets their trade route when completing a royal dockyard, not building a lighthouse. They have the same cap on trade routes as everybody else.

This means that you would be able to get that city's trade route up and running 10-20 turns earlier due to the district being half price of a CD and not having to build a lighthouse/market.

Is it Earth shattering? No. Is it a little something extra that gives a historically very powerful civ a nudge in the right direction as far as balance? Yes.
 
I gotta say, I have no idea how you folks can zip through the game so fast. I would be curious to know what game settings you start with in order to totally saturate the map with 100 cities by turn 200. While I admit I have never played for speed, I didn't think such speed was even possible. Even if I play aggressive, I don't think I've had more than 10 or 15 cities by turn 200.

So are you talking small map? Quick game speed? I'm just curious because I would not have even thought it possible.
There's really no "you folks". Lily uses "we" or "you" as pronouns, which characterizes the way he plays as the norm that everyone knows about, accepts, and follows as routine, so you feel like you're the outlier when your experiences don't align. I think folks should stick to using the first-person when describing their own experiences.

The speed-play wins are no major secretive feat. They're just a matter of finding large bonuses that the devs intended players to use in a moderated, balanced approach--things like chopping and production overflows and city-state bonuses--and instead leaning on them to the exclusion of all else. If you're looking to win a game as quickly as possible, this style of play absolutely makes perfect sense. Civ's victory conditions are about specialization and beelining, after all. But if you actually enjoy playing the game as much as beating it (I would say a lot of people favor the former over the latter), you'd probably find the cookie-cutter discipline that optimized play requires monotonous. As always, YMMV.
 
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Didn't they also change the way the Merchant Republic bonus works, so it gives a gold bonus to cities with governors?

In general, they seem to be eliminating any way to get bonus trade routes that don't come directly from building harbors or hubs. Basically, further rewarding a quantity over quality approach.
 
Didn't they also change the way the Merchant Republic bonus works, so it gives a gold bonus to cities with governors?

In general, they seem to be eliminating any way to get bonus trade routes that don't come directly from building harbors or hubs. Basically, further rewarding a quantity over quality approach.

And this makes Cree stronger than they initially looked.
 
I gotta say, I have no idea how you folks can zip through the game so fast. I would be curious to know what game settings you start with in order to totally saturate the map with 100 cities by turn 200. While I admit I have never played for speed, I didn't think such speed was even possible. Even if I play aggressive, I don't think I've had more than 10 or 15 cities by turn 200.

So are you talking small map? Quick game speed? I'm just curious because I would not have even thought it possible.

Here is the video of a player who wins a Peaceful Science victory in 157 turns. This should give you a rough idea of the strategy and mindset of this style of play. Not my style of play, I must admit, but some quite enjoy it. :)

--Strategy and guide for fast peaceful deity science victory in 157 Turns. Rome (Deity, Standard speed, Standard Size, Continents) First playthrough.--

 
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Bring on the Maritime CS!
+1science/+1culture?
In fact, they have added the Maritime CS already, with all icons, scripts, localization texts and rewards, in Khmer and Indonesian DLC.
Its main color is green, trade bonus is +1 food, envoy effects are: 1 envoy - +2 food in capital, 3 envoys - +2 food for harbor, 6 envoys - +2 food for harbor.
But it only exists in the scenario. Don't know whether it could be move to the official game in future.
Food bonus is not attractive in vanilla, perhaps in R&F it will improve a little (those 100% building yield cards changed to +50% from 10+ population).
 
In fact, they have added the Maritime CS already, with all icons, scripts, localization texts and rewards, in Khmer and Indonesian DLC.
Its main color is green, trade bonus is +1 food, envoy effects are: 1 envoy - +2 food in capital, 3 envoys - +2 food for harbor, 6 envoys - +2 food for harbor.
But it only exists in the scenario. Don't know whether it could be move to the official game in future.
Food bonus is not attractive in vanilla, perhaps in R&F it will improve a little (those 100% building yield cards changed to +50% from 10+ population).

Honestly Food from Maritime CSs doesn't make too much sense outside of the scenario. Of course the sea provides sustenance, but the maritime CSs were almost all trading posts/commercial settlements. Militaristic/Industrial CSs already provide two types of Production so if they do bring in Maritime CSs it would probably be best for them each to be Gold + something (Gold + some Science for commercial, Gold + some Culture for maritime? Idk).
 
Honestly Food from Maritime CSs doesn't make too much sense outside of the scenario. Of course the sea provides sustenance, but the maritime CSs were almost all trading posts/commercial settlements. Militaristic/Industrial CSs already provide two types of Production so if they do bring in Maritime CSs it would probably be best for them each to be Gold + something (Gold + some Science for commercial, Gold + some Culture for maritime? Idk).
Since the typical CS bonuses are in +2 increments, no reason a city-state couldn't split the bonus into +1/+1. Food makes sense if, for no other reason, that harbors are switch-hitters that generate gold, food, production, and housing. Production would, of course, be welcome as well, but it's already covered by two other CS's.

Then again, I'd also be perfectly fine with just giving bonus gold to harbors.
 
Here is the video of a player who wins a Peaceful Science victory in 157 turns. This should give you a rough idea of the strategy and mindset of this style of play. Not my style of play, I must admit, but some quite enjoy it. :)

--Strategy and guide for fast peaceful deity science victory in 157 Turns. Rome (Deity, Standard speed, Standard Size, Continents) First playthrough.--

Thank you for that!

I've skimmed through a couple of segments to get an idea how it was done and found it quite fascinating. Like you, its not really my style, but it does neatly demonstrate how the different game mechanics can be optimized for virtually any play style. Also very fascinating is the fact that it is a peaceful game.

I did note that there was some luck involved concerning start location and the narrator mentioned in the very beginning that it was his third restart in attempting such a game.

Lastly, I think such a game magnifies the stark contrast between the human player and the AI. The human player has foreknowledge of where the game can go and can process all the various game mechanics into a customized strategy to pursue a very specific goal. The AI can only react to weighted values in its algorithm and that can often seem nonsensical to the human. @Victoria mentioned in another thread that the AI has no memory and that is quite correct. Without memory, there can be no learning and without learning there can be no planning. The AI can't associate significant events into a narrative and therefore cannot design a narrative of its own. Ergo, no strategy. At least not beyond what the values in the algorithm direct it to do. Despite those failings, I am rather surprised that the AI performs as well as it does.
 
Thank you for that!

I've skimmed through a couple of segments to get an idea how it was done and found it quite fascinating. Like you, its not really my style, but it does neatly demonstrate how the different game mechanics can be optimized for virtually any play style. Also very fascinating is the fact that it is a peaceful game.

I did note that there was some luck involved concerning start location and the narrator mentioned in the very beginning that it was his third restart in attempting such a game.

Lastly, I think such a game magnifies the stark contrast between the human player and the AI. The human player has foreknowledge of where the game can go and can process all the various game mechanics into a customized strategy to pursue a very specific goal. The AI can only react to weighted values in its algorithm and that can often seem nonsensical to the human. @Victoria mentioned in another thread that the AI has no memory and that is quite correct. Without memory, there can be no learning and without learning there can be no planning. The AI can't associate significant events into a narrative and therefore cannot design a narrative of its own. Ergo, no strategy. At least not beyond what the values in the algorithm direct it to do. Despite those failings, I am rather surprised that the AI performs as well as it does.

I agree with your assessment. I find it very interesting, as well, even though it is not my preferred style of play. It is interesting that he managed to do it peacefully. Yeah, it does require a specific start and it also does require some abortive attempts. That’s the nature of the beast.

I learned a lot, though. Such as trying not to have my military units stumble across another Civ’s capital and getting a very bad first impression modifier.

Plus, I now have a greater appreciation for the way the AI works. Pretty cool. :)
 
Yes it is one of the best videos out there fore sure
 
The speed-play wins are no major secretive feat. They're just a matter of finding large bonuses that the devs intended players to use in a moderated, balanced approach--things like chopping and production overflows and city-state bonuses--and instead leaning on them to the exclusion of all else. If you're looking to win a game as quickly as possible, this style of play absolutely makes perfect sense. Civ's victory conditions are about specialization and beelining, after all. But if you actually enjoy playing the game as much as beating it (I would say a lot of people favor the former over the latter), you'd probably find the cookie-cutter discipline that optimized play requires monotonous. As always, YMMV.

It's a difficult balance indeed, and as I've said in other threads, game designers and players have different goals. High level players may seek to win efficiently, but developers need to appeal to an audience and some things are for flavor-- otherwise the last 2 eras might as well not exist.

When I posted this, I was well aware that commercial hub or even trade route spam is not really important from a speedrun point of play. In fact I usually only build as many as needed to boost medieval faires. However, I'd also argue this perspective is incredibly tunnel visoned for one reason because things do not occur in a vacuum. Thus, I think the only reason to adopt this perspective is if you think the game will not change and will keep the status quo, and that's a bit pessimistic. Basically, there would be no discussion beyond the few trotted out, predictable lines that have been repeated endlessly.

For example, are encampments weak because they are useless, or are they useless because the AI does not present a military threat? This is effectively a meta created around your opponents being idiots; I talk that back because that's an insult to idiots-- your opponents not playing the game-- not necessarily the bad design of the encampment.



Why not argue that mushrooms in Super Mario Brothers be removed because better players don't need them and it slows down a speedrun due to the animation?

Likewise, the AI defends itself so poorly that optimal strategy pretty much is reduced to playing solitaire for the most part, so people are really just trying to win harder which is something I've never really had much concern for. That also means most of the game can just be ignored. And yes, mass trade routes are a novelty because production isn't needed that much if you can just chop everything.

I mean it's cool and all and certainly everyone has their own criteria. But sometimes I do have to scoff at people running down the street and then asking why everyone else walking isn't running properly, maybe because there is not a race. A little common sense would dictate that a superior player would be able to scale back accordingly and judge a screenshot by the point of development of the game. For example, if you see someone researching Games and Recreation and has 7 cities, it really doesn't matter little how long they took to get there. The game more or less plays out the same unless they've really fallen behind the AIs.

The end game score in the game doesn't account for score, and while you get achievements for a bunch of mundane things, finishing fast isn't one them. It's almost like if nobody cares.
 
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The end game score in the game doesn't account for score, and while you get achievements for a bunch of mundane things, finishing fast isn't one them. It's almost like if nobody cares.
Well-said all around. What does skill mean in a game you have to go out of your way to lose? It's a bit of a canard.

Arguably, speed play is the easier mode of play, not the more challenging. The AI can't sprint, so giving it every chance to approximate something akin to a head of steam is like fighting with a hand tied behind your back.

Having said that, I am happy to hear from optimizers like Lily. I think they have something to offer that others can learn from. I have actually cut down on commercial hubs a lot after realizing they weren't as vital as I was making them out to be. Lily deserves some props for selling that position. I just take issue with presenting optimized speed-play as so normative that it invariably draws out people who feel inadequate because they aren't finishing their games in 160 turns.

"Speed-shaming" shouldn't be a thing. :)
 
For example, are encampments weak because they are useless, or are they useless because the AI does not present a military threat?
Likewise, the AI defends itself so poorly that optimal strategy pretty much is reduced to playing solitaire for the most part, so people are really just trying to win harder which is something I've never really had much concern for.

I am beginning to wonder if the skill of the AI can become the inverse of the skill of the human player depending on how the game goes. Does the AI go into a tailspin when the human goes hard and fast? I play very long and deliberate games and as such I have never found the AI to be quite as terrible as reported by so many others. Is this because my style of play allows the AI to catch up more? Don't get me wrong, I have witnessed the AI do some dumb things. But usually it seemed the AI was simply mediocre and lacking dash. However, compared to the YouTube video of the science win, I would characterize my own play as relatively mediocre as well. Within the same game, the losing civs appear to grow dumber as the game goes on and any chance for success slips further from reach.


But sometimes I do have to scoff at people running down the street and then asking why everyone else walking isn't running properly, maybe because there is not a race.

An excellent analogy!

The end game score in the game doesn't account for score, and while you get achievements for a bunch of mundane things, finishing fast isn't one them. It's almost like if nobody cares.

But some people do care. Some people want to break the speed barrier for the same reason Sir Edmund Hillary climbed Everest. They take pride in their accomplishment in the same way I take pride in my version of a successful game. The great thing about Civ6 is that there is plenty of room for all such versions.
 
I'd like to see something different like: initial +2 food and housing w/ building tiers. I'd want those coastal cities to be ideal places to support specialists. Now if a wonder/LA/civ/city-state increased specialist slots per district/building, that would be great.

That certainly can make some sense. But Amenities is still a major barrier to growth. It would almost need to be food/housing/amenities as the three tiers.

Honestly Food from Maritime CSs doesn't make too much sense outside of the scenario. Of course the sea provides sustenance, but the maritime CSs were almost all trading posts/commercial settlements. Militaristic/Industrial CSs already provide two types of Production so if they do bring in Maritime CSs it would probably be best for them each to be Gold + something (Gold + some Science for commercial, Gold + some Culture for maritime? Idk).

You could have some Economic City States that were on the sea. Or you could make it so they provide gold and food in your Harbor District. It's a bit of a balancing act.
 
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