English Eleanor

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Hopefully this thread will not get totally buried under the hype for the New Frontier. So I am finishing up the civ wiki entry for English Eleanor before the release of new stuffs and I found absolutely nothing positive about this combo. I already have a disdain for Eleanor, I think she is a terribly designed leader, as she is significantly weaker than the already existing leaders of both civs. Her ability is 100% worthless in multiplayer and relies too much on different lucky factors to align to work on single player. There will be games it feels so broken and there will be games it feels like you dont have a leader ability. You can read more on my opinion on wiki if you are interested.

At least with France, her ability is somewhat synergized with the UI and civ UA, English Eleanor feels like an afterthought, as she literally is countersynergistic with the civ. You would want to play on a land map for the loyalty game to work, as we know loyalty flipping is nigh impossible over a body of water, but then on land map you can't use your UD in every city, except for sometimes you find a lake tile, which cannot happen in every single city, and your UD is bloody strong, it is a stronger version of an already solid district. Also, you cannot use your UU effectively, although the Sea Dog is not that impressive, it's something. If you play on a water map, you basically have no leader, Eleanor doesn't do anything. Even if you spawn on a landmass next to another civ, it's hard to flip them, since landmasses on water map are often small, you can't surround them with your cities, but can only settle side by side. So what am I supposed to do with this woman, Firaxis? Should I play on a land map to see how lucky I can get and let go the strongest piece in my arsenal or a water map so that I basically have no leader? Or am I missing anything here?

 

[Victoria]

You would want to play on a land map for the loyalty game

Rly?
E Eleanor gets RNDY for +4 loyalty and each captured harbour becomes one. She is the agressive twin while FEleanor is passive. Harbour cities not only are typically large but can be fish chopped for even Moar pop.
Move inland and pillage their luxuries and farms, chop in a theater if need be and move in your works and Amani, move in your spies... take 1 more large city and their empire crumbles.

 

[Morningcalm]

Hopefully this thread will not get totally buried under the hype for the New Frontier. So I am finishing up the civ wiki entry for English Eleanor before the release of new stuffs and I found absolutely nothing positive about this combo. I already have a disdain for Eleanor, I think she is a terribly designed leader, as she is significantly weaker than the already existing leaders of both civs. Her ability is 100% worthless in multiplayer and relies too much on different lucky factors to align to work on single player. There will be games it feels so broken and there will be games it feels like you dont have a leader ability. You can read more on my opinion on wiki if you are interested.

At least with France, her ability is somewhat synergized with the UI and civ UA, English Eleanor feels like an afterthought, as she literally is countersynergistic with the civ. You would want to play on a land map for the loyalty game to work, as we know loyalty flipping is nigh impossible over a body of water, but then on land map you can't use your UD in every city, except for sometimes you find a lake tile, which cannot happen in every single city, and your UD is bloody strong, it is a stronger version of an already solid district. Also, you cannot use your UU effectively, although the Sea Dog is not that impressive, it's something. If you play on a water map, you basically have no leader, Eleanor doesn't do anything. Even if you spawn on a landmass next to another civ, it's hard to flip them, since landmasses on water map are often small, you can't surround them with your cities, but can only settle side by side. So what am I supposed to do with this woman, Firaxis? Should I play on a land map to see how lucky I can get and let go the strongest piece in my arsenal or a water map so that I basically have no leader? Or am I missing anything here?

Here's a strategy guide talking about Eleanor on the English side: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1905994186

 

[Victoria]

Here's a strategy guide talking about Eleanor on the English side:

uhhh... suggests a peaceful EEleanor? Seems more like a guide writer than a player. Try it like I say. 2 cities is not a lot of grievance and it’s faster and more fun than the slow grind of peace.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Yeah, I think at this point everyone has read at least 1 or 2 Zigzag's guide, the English Eleanor guide is not exactly the best of his. You just can't play a totally passive English Eleanor, loyalty itself spreads poorly on water maps when your cities are far from each other. I'll give her another go combining aggression and loyalty flipping, that sounds more reasonable.

 

[Leucarum]

At least with France, her ability is somewhat synergized

I kinda thought that too at first. Thanks to cheap harbours though Englaenor is swimming in cash. She can buy great people, great works, whatever, very very regularly. After playing her my opinion on which is better flipped as quickly as a great city near our common border, like a garden of splendid roses.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think you have it backwards. English Eleanor is much better than French Eleanor. France is the most useless civ in the entire game (Catherine gets by because her leader bonus is great)

Superior harbors, and increased resources for war are much better than building wonders a little faster, no early bonus, and the most useless UI/UU in the entire game. Even the Sea Dog can provide the random pillage.

The other thing is that building wonders actually has very little to do with a culture victory. The tourism from wonders is usually not very substantial unless you're China who gets a bunch for cheap. In fact, building too many wonders hurts a culture victory because it reduces the venues Rock Bands can play on.

 

[Morningcalm]

uhhh... suggests a peaceful EEleanor? Seems more like a guide writer than a player. Try it like I say. 2 cities is not a lot of grievance and it’s faster and more fun than the slow grind of peace.

He's of course a player as well if he's writing a guide on the game. Much like Potato McWhiskey is of course a player because he's narrated guides on the game. Also, I don't see anywhere in the guide Zigzagzigal saying Eleanor should be played totally peacefully, and in fact he rates Eleanor as 8/10 on possible Domination victory, though he of course emphasizes peace-related strats since Eleanor's bonus can lend itself to peaceful domination (even if she's not exerting the most pressure on a free city, as he notes earlier).

I think "faster and more fun" don't necessarily mean the strategy considerations are any different--some people might want to play England peacefully! (I never do, though.)

Yeah, I think at this point everyone has read at least 1 or 2 Zigzag's guide, the English Eleanor guide is not exactly the best of his. You just can't play a totally passive English Eleanor, loyalty itself spreads poorly on water maps when your cities are far from each other. I'll give her another go combining aggression and loyalty flipping, that sounds more reasonable.

Again, I don't think he says you must play a totally passive English Eleanor. He specifically says you must try and settle lots of cities. Re: advantages of English Eleanor, he points out:

Eleanor of Aquitaine uniquely can lead two different civs - England or France - and as such if you want to play with Eleanor's unique attributes, you have two different sets of complementary bonuses to choose from. Both civs have their distinct advantages over the other.

Advantages of England

• Stronger early-game - The Royal Navy Dockyard offers some general infrastructural support as well as gold and potentially science to help Eleanor get through the early eras.
  
• Superior colonisation - English Eleanor can more easily get a foothold in new continents thanks to the +4 loyalty bonus offered by Royal Navy Dockyards, increasing the number of potential target cities to flip.
  
• Faster Theatre Square development - England can build up a powered Factory infrastructure faster and more effectively than France can, resulting in more production that can be used for building Theatre Squares and their buildings, and training Archaeologist units.
  
• More gold - Royal Navy Dockyards offer plenty of gold that can be used to buy Theatre Squares and their buildings.

 

[Victoria]

I don't see anywhere in the guide Zigzagzigal saying Eleanor should be played totally peacefully, and in fact he rates Eleanor as 8/10 on possible Domination victory

“Domination is largely England's best route, though Eleanor and Victoria have different ways of going about it. Victoria uses free naval units and the Redcoat UU to invade new continents, while Eleanor prefers to impose loyalty pressure on nearby cities to flip them peacefully to her control”

Yes she can win a domination game peacefully (WHat is the word prefers in there for?) and yes many people enjoy playing her peacefully but does that mean it suits all people? @DogeEnricoDandolo basically was saying she is dull peaceful and I firmly believe she is better played the other way. Now you can argue that zigs guide does not strictly scream peaceful but neither does it point out my simple effective approach above which is played by many and therefore the guide is sub standard in my view. It does not even cover settling on a continent on the turn you get swordsmen, it’s quite a strong option for the landlocked England and them airports make crazy amounts of production... not mentioned.

 

[bengalryan9]

I think you have it backwards. English Eleanor is much better than French Eleanor. France is the most useless civ in the entire game (Catherine gets by because her leader bonus is great)

Superior harbors, and increased resources for war are much better than building wonders a little faster, no early bonus, and the most useless UI/UU in the entire game. Even the Sea Dog can provide the random pillage.

The other thing is that building wonders actually has very little to do with a culture victory. The tourism from wonders is usually not very substantial unless you're China who gets a bunch for cheap. In fact, building too many wonders hurts a culture victory because it reduces the venues Rock Bands can play on.

I think the new Catherine in the Frontier Pass sounds interesting, and I'm guessing the Chateau gets a buff as well.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

England ability is quite versatile, much better military engineers allow you to get up stuff like dams and aqueducts and can be used to chop stuff as unlike builders, military engineers don't increase in price or need a card to be effective. Power, resources and industrial zone bonuses are all nice to have. Cheap and better harbor and naval raider that can capture enemy ships are useful and naval raiders are unlocked with Culture, not science.

France 20% wonder bonus is only taken advantage of if you build wonders, which mean you are not doing stuff like increasing the amount of great works you have which is if anything counteractive to Elenor, however the tourism part of France do have a synergy to Elenor.

 

[Morningcalm]

“Domination is largely England's best route, though Eleanor and Victoria have different ways of going about it. Victoria uses free naval units and the Redcoat UU to invade new continents, while Eleanor prefers to impose loyalty pressure on nearby cities to flip them peacefully to her control”

Yes she can win a domination game peacefully (WHat is the word prefers in there for?) and yes many people enjoy playing her peacefully but does that mean it suits all people? @DogeEnricoDandolo basically was saying she is dull peaceful and I firmly believe she is better played the other way. Now you can argue that zigs guide does not strictly scream peaceful but neither does it point out my simple effective approach above which is played by many and therefore the guide is sub standard in my view. It does not even cover settling on a continent on the turn you get swordsmen, it’s quite a strong option for the landlocked England and them airports make crazy amounts of production... not mentioned.

The word "prefers" is likely in there to point out that playing as Eleanor on England's side doesn't mean "no war". So while Zigzagzigal's guide may point out peaceful means, nothing in there discourages fighting as well as far as I can see, even if he seems to suggest a no-diplo-hit conquering can suit.

Also re: swordsmen, that IS in the guide, at least implicitly in the caption under one of the screenshots, to quote:

I don't even have any iron but because I have Iron Working, I get a free Swordsman from settling this new continent!

Airport production is also mentioned:

Airport

English powered Airports offer a respectable +10 production boost (versus the +6 of other civs) - though they arrive late. It's mostly useful as an added bonus if you were intending to build up Aerodromes anyway.

Overall, I think you are being overly harsh on Zigzagzigal. The fact that the guide doesn't have every tip you would pose doesn't to me signify he's missing some critical thing--the guide is very comprehensive overall, especially compared to other guides (including guides in this forum).

And I think my suggestion to look at his guide is fine, seeing as there aren't exactly a wealth of guides on English Eleanor's abilities comboing or being used as part of the overall English suite of abilities.

 

[Jkchart]

I kinda thought that too at first. Thanks to cheap harbours though Englaenor is swimming in cash. She can buy great people, great works, whatever, very very regularly. After playing her my opinion on which is better flipped as quickly as a great city near our common border, like a garden of splendid roses.

This is exactly why I love Engleanor. She can buy everything with ridiculous cash, flip cities and move her great works faster than the blitz to continue her loyalty conquest spree.

 

[UWHabs]

Main thing I don't like about english Eleanor is that there's too many district I need to optimize. Hard to fit Harbors (UB), theatres (great works), industrial zones (workshop of the world), plus campuses for science as well.

I guess where it comes down to is I'm still not sure the idea map for her. Maybe just a fractal map, hoping to get lots of snaky zones to try to have more spots for harbors and canals? Or maybe the 7 seas would be tempting too, although I always feel like that map just feels off compared to the ones I'm used to and can never really find one I like.

 

[iammaxhailme]

To be honest, if I was going to do the lodsofemone route, I'd just play victoria.

I generally only play eleanor as france

 

[GenyaArikado]

and relies too much on different lucky factors to align to work on single player. There will be games it feels so broken and there will be games it feels like you dont have a leader ability.

When you play as peaceful domination Eleanor you basically have to adapt your whole playstyle for that. That's the fun part of playing as her. Idk if it works for deity because i'm not a hard mode Civ player and it's probably sub-optimal for MP (given domination is the optimal playstyle there) but at least in my level, i find her superfun.

 

[bengalryan9]

Main thing I don't like about english Eleanor is that there's too many district I need to optimize. Hard to fit Harbors (UB), theatres (great works), industrial zones (workshop of the world), plus campuses for science as well.

I guess where it comes down to is I'm still not sure the idea map for her. Maybe just a fractal map, hoping to get lots of snaky zones to try to have more spots for harbors and canals? Or maybe the 7 seas would be tempting too, although I always feel like that map just feels off compared to the ones I'm used to and can never really find one I like.

I find it worthwhile to build the occasional EC as Eleanor, too... Bread and Circuses can help build up that loyalty pressure.

I suppose you'd want most of your RYDs and IZs in your "backline" cities and focus on TS and ECs in your frontline cities.

I'm sure Engleanor can be powerful as spelled out in this thread, but it is a weird combination and there's not a lot of synergy there IMO.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Main thing I don't like about english Eleanor is that there's too many district I need to optimize. Hard to fit Harbors (UB), theatres (great works), industrial zones (workshop of the world), plus campuses for science as well.

Nah, just focus on Campus, Trade, and Theater, and when your cities hit pop 10, add IZs. Not all cities need them.

Also don't waste time on the peaceful flipping meme-- that's basically just a win harder mechanic. Why bother building all that crap in border cities so you can sit around to slowly wait for cities to flip when you can just kick down 2-3 of their population centers and gain the remaining cities without having to generate grievances or even moving much. And England is definitely far superior in this category.

 

[Sostratus]

EEleanor is superior because England’s abilities get you more STUFF.
Stuff wins games.
Also, that iron start bias...

I don’t need to France bash because that’s already taken care of but England’s military engineers and power bonuses drop perfectly into setting up strong cities to put great works in.
Do you know how much it costs to rush a dam with military engineers? 425 hammers.
British pay 105.
Aqueducts?
British pay 105.
Flood barriers?
British pay 105.

Literally Rushing one dam is equal to France’s production savings building the entire Eiffel Tower.

 

[assegai]

Eleanor is one of my favourite Civ6 leaders, she is incredibly powerful and so much fun to play when her abilities are used correctly ! French or English doesn’t matter much but English has stronger bonuses for production and gold income.

I played two deity games with Eleanor on continents or Pangea maps and won both (one religious, one culture) easily, ending up in both cases peacefully conquering a whole continent, including opponents capital cities as well as city states. It’s like walking through foreign lands and everyone just willingly gives up everything - land, population, buildings, wonders.... all which instantly becomes available to you and triggers more in a snowballs effect. Unstoppable and incredible fun !

Here’s a few of the key elements for success :

- take divine spark Panthéon and have one city with Oracle and promoted Pingala and developed theatre square - that will ensure a healthy supply of great writers and artists to fill your border cities with great works

- get a religion and build up a strong faith income, and at some point get the Cathedrals belief (thankfully AI does not seem to prioritise it)

- build temples and fill them with relics you either find, create, or buy to the AI

- settle aggressively, avoid war, get friends with all AI if possible

- build the Taj Mahal ! It will make it easy to get golden ages, so important in the loyalty offensive

- identify target foreign cities on the edge of your empire, settle as near them as you can

- fill your pen nearby cities with great works - that implies building theatre square for filling amphitheater and museum AND holy site to fill the temple with a relic and the cathedral with a religious painting. There are wonders with slots as well but it may take too much time to build, although with England you may get great engineers to speed it up

- get spies as soon as you can and put them in the target cities to kick out governors and forment unrest - it will considerably speed up the process

- spread you religion to the target cities, that’s an additional -3 loyalty per turn

- put Amani with relevant promotion in a nearby city - I think for -2 loyalty per turn

Doing all this, inevitable some cities will flip, then try to create slots in then and move your great works along - at this point it snowballs very quickly and you soon become the peaceful ruler of the world, the almighty Godess Eleanor !