"English" Empire?

[Reveilled]

true but i guess it's more of the lumping in of the Irish that I did not like, they have not been part fo Great britain ever as far as I know

Well...in some ways, the Irish have been part of Great Britain, but when one gets into these technical arguments over what to call the islands in the north of Western Europe and the countries and people on them, it's worth remembering that "Great Britain" technically only refers to the largest island in the group, as well as the kingdom that was formed by the unification of the Crowns of Scotland and England into a single title. Thus, the Irish have been a part of "Great Britain" in the sense that the Scots were originally an Irish Celt tribe that migrated to what is not known as Scotland. Other than that though, Ireland and the Irish have been a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (which ceased to exist when Ireland, minus Ulster, became independent, and instead became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), and to this day Ireland remains a part of the British Isles, which is the conventional name for the group of islands off the north coast of France (some Irish take issue with the name as suggesting that Ireland is still part of Britain, but it is worth remembering that the UKoGBaNI, like America and the Netherlands, was named after its geographical location, not the other way round). Also, prior to Anglo-Saxon migration to the island of Great Britain, the Brythonic Celts made up the vast majority of people on the British Isles, and there wasn't much of a political or nationalistic distinction between a Brythonic Celt from what is now England and one from what is now Ireland, so when Speaking about the Pre-anglo-saxon peoples, it is not (normally) considered at all offensive or inconsiderate to refer to the Celts in Great Britain and Ireland as "Britons" collectively.

 

[lachiendupape]

Well...in some ways, the Irish have been part of Great Britain, but when one gets into these technical arguments over what to call the islands in the north of Western Europe and the countries and people on them, it's worth remembering that "Great Britain" technically only refers to the largest island in the group, as well as the kingdom that was formed by the unification of the Crowns of Scotland and England into a single title. Thus, the Irish have been a part of "Great Britain" in the sense that the Scots were originally an Irish Celt tribe that migrated to what is not known as Scotland. Other than that though, Ireland and the Irish have been a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (which ceased to exist when Ireland, minus Ulster, became independent, and instead became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), and to this day Ireland remains a part of the British Isles, which is the conventional name for the group of islands off the north coast of France (some Irish take issue with the name as suggesting that Ireland is still part of Britain, but it is worth remembering that the UKoGBaNI, like America and the Netherlands, was named after its geographical location, not the other way round). Also, prior to Anglo-Saxon migration to the island of Great Britain, the Brythonic Celts made up the vast majority of people on the British Isles, and there wasn't much of a political or nationalistic distinction between a Brythonic Celt from what is now England and one from what is now Ireland, so when Speaking about the Pre-anglo-saxon peoples, it is not (normally) considered at all offensive or inconsiderate to refer to the Celts in Great Britain and Ireland as "Britons" collectively.

GPWM

i don't even know why i got involved in this imn the first place, never took any notice in history and I like the fact that its the English empire, gives the Scots one more chip on their shoulders

 

[liam1om]

You can not call the Irish Britons. When the Romans referred to Britons they meant people in Britain, ie. The Island which contains Scotland, Wales and England.

Also, your right the Irish were Celts but were not the same band as were in Britain. The Irish are believed to have come over from northern Spain about 3,000 years ago. Where as the Celts that used to occupy Britain came over from Gaul (France).

 

[Kolath]

Umm... why don't you just change the name to "British Empire" when you start your game? You can change your civ name and adjective when you choose your civ. I'm a yankee, but I thought British would be better, so I changed it. *Shrugs*

 

[Ulfang]

A few years ago I was talking to a Washington DC policeman, who suddenly asked me: "Are you English or British?".

I'm Australian.

lol I'm ENGLISH (most of the Time) and British (some of the time) lol.

My wife is Russian and can't tell the difference between Scots, Irish or Welsh (as in their Accent). she often says they are Scots when they're Irish and Irish when they're Scots and Welsh when she's not sure.

She can't tell the difference between the English Accent and the Australian so its not just Americans.

As for the original reason for this Thread. I think it's already been said but just change the name of your Empire and stop getting stressed ... its just a GAME!!! .... Damn Jocks lol.

 

[Seanirl]

"Britons" would be better than "English" or "British", I think. "Britons", in addition to including everyone on the British Isles, has the added advantage of including everywhen on the British Isles, from the Brythonic Celts to the Anglo-Saxons to modern Scots, Welsh, English and Irish. Boudicca would have been a good leader for that purpose.

British Isles? The Irish included in a British civ?

No... just... no. I find that highly annoying and downright offensive. Not to mention a crock of bull****. I know nobody's going to give a crap anyway, but whatever.

I mean, if anything, Celtic Isles would make a lot more sense yeah, let's go with that

 

[Reveilled]

"Britons" would be better than "English" or "British", I think. "Britons", in addition to including everyone on the British Isles, has the added advantage of including everywhen on the British Isles, from the Brythonic Celts to the Anglo-Saxons to modern Scots, Welsh, English and Irish. Boudicca would have been a good leader for that purpose.

British Isles? The Irish included in a British civ?

No... just... no. I find that highly annoying and downright offensive. Not to mention a crock of bull****. I know nobody's going to give a crap anyway, but whatever.

I mean, if anything, Celtic Isles would make a lot more sense yeah, let's go with that

I don't know why you would find it offensive. Canadians, Mexicans, Venezuelans and Brazilians are all Americans. Both Irish people and people from the countries that make up the United Kingdom are Britons in the sense that I'm using the term. The isles were called the British Isles (Pretannia was named by a Greek) before a country called Britain ever existed.

 

[liam1om]

I don't know why you would find it offensive. Canadians, Mexicans, Venezuelans and Brazilians are all Americans. Both Irish people and people from the countries that make up the United Kingdom are Britons in the sense that I'm using the term. The isles were called the British Isles (Pretannia was named by a Greek) before a country called Britain ever existed.

No your wrong, Britons has never been used to describe the people from Ireland.

Irish people would find that offensive the same way the a Jew would find it offensive being called a Nazi. There is a long history of oppresion from Britain on Ireland and to still be linked to them even in the term of British Isles is offensive.

 

[lachiendupape]

I don't know why you would find it offensive. Canadians, Mexicans, Venezuelans and Brazilians are all Americans. Both Irish people and people from the countries that make up the United Kingdom are Britons in the sense that I'm using the term. The isles were called the British Isles (Pretannia was named by a Greek) before a country called Britain ever existed.

sorry i just need to know where are you from? You just don't seem to get the problem so it makes me think that you are neither English or Irish

 

[liam1om]

I think hes probably english, the majority of English people still think that Ireland is part of Britain. It really frustrates me when the British media keep referring to Ireland as part of the UK. The other day I had an arguement with someone who just would not accept that Ireland was a seperate country!! WTH! Speak to any American or European and I can guarantee you that they will know more about the UK and Ireland than anyone living in Britain will!

 

[lachiendupape]

I think hes probably english, the majority of English people still think that Ireland is part of Britain.

HUGE generalisation and not at all true, you have quantified this statement because you had an argument with one person?

I obviously don't have any figures to back me up but I find it very hard to believe that the majority of English people believe that Eire is part of Great Britain (I belive this is what you are saying). It wouldn't suprise me if younger people didn't know as they haven't grown up through the violence in Eire and mainland England, I live in brighton and my father worked on the grand hotel bombing, for the majority of people in Brighton it was a huge reminder just how distant (diplomatically) the two countries were. not too mention the other attrocities which occured in both Eire and England in the name of religion.

Fortunately we don't have to feel this way anymore, there really is no reason, and for many people in Great Britain and Eire the troubles are something that would rather be forgotten. yes the English were oppresive and yes it takes some people a long time to forget and forgive these things, but lets face it when we do get together for a sporting event or as tourists in my opinion a warm welcome is given by both sides.

 

[liam1om]

Well you are right, it is mostly people under the age of 30. Even my girlfriend when I first knew her wouldnt believe me that Ireland was a seperate country!

Also, it doesnt really help when you watch the BBC and the continually keep mentioning "home nation" Ireland. IRELAND IS NOT A HOME NATION!!

You say there is no real reason to feel this way anymore, or the troubles are something that should be forgotten, well in a lot of peoples minds northern Ireland is still being occupied.

 

[Ulfang]

well in a lot of peoples minds northern Ireland is still being occupied.

Not in the minds of too many people in Northern Ireland though

 

[liam1om]

Not in the minds of too many people in Northern Ireland though

Well ofcourse if you invade somewhere then ship your people over and ask them are you happy for us to rule then yes they are going to say that.

Anyway, its now 52% protestant 48% catholic, give it 30 years and the Catholics will be in the majority.

 

[lachiendupape]

Well ofcourse if you invade somewhere then ship your people over and ask them are you happy for us to rule then yes they are going to say that.

Anyway, its now 52% protestant 48% catholic, give it 30 years and the Catholics will be in the majority.

and hopefully everyone concerened will find a way to forgive and forget (a christian maxim) and live together peacefully.

 

[liam1om]

Yes I hope your right, but if the Germans had invaded in WW2 would you just say o well, lets learn to live together and forgive and forget? I hope not!

 

[Kinkill]

Heh, Northern Ireland, the only people who should really have any say in 'what' it is are those that live there... and most would rather see it be anything (Independant, Irish, or British) as long as there was no longer any violence.

As to the original issue, I agree, it would be more correct to use Britain rather than England if you are going to have Victoria as one possible leader. The fact that many people around the world think of the terms English and British as being the same is no reason to actually support this ignorance.

And the main point I always make, English, Scottish and Welsh people will mostly all be fine with playing a British empire, but they will not all be fine with playing England.

 

[whb]

For goodness sakes, liam1om, get some perspective. For most of Europe, the Germans did invade in WW2 but people have moved on and don't carry an enormous chip on their shoulder because of the actions of current Germans' grandparents generation. And I certainly do hope we can "live together" with them.

And yet here you are mouthing off about English people being "like Nazis" because of an invasion that happened in the period 1172 - 1600 (and final union in 1800), and it's now some 80 years after the republic gained independence. Grow up.

Incidentally, calling Ireland a "Home nation" in rugby union is correct - it refers to the fact that Ireland was one of the teams in the competition called the "Home Championship" from 1883 - 1909, and therefore they are one of the original national rugby teams. (Around the time of the 1990 World Cup I also heard the BBC also occasionally describe France as a Home nation despite the competition having been renamed the "Five Nations" when they joined in 1910.)

The moral of this story: if you're seeing red, it's just because your blinkers are too tight.

 

[Ninja Queen]

It's pretty stupid to split hairs about this. The Scots are actually an Irish tribe, the Welsh culture is the closest thing to the pre-Saxon culture of the area now known as England, the Saxons are German and the majority of the English population today are still Celtic in descent, if not culture.

While Elizabeth accurately represents the English empire (there was no British empire until 1707, and since English colonies in North America and the Carribean along with England's status as a superpower long predate this) Victoria's inclusion shows that it's just some Americans who can't work out what's what.

Including the Celts and giving them a unique unit from one of the kingdoms of the medieval period (e.g. Gallowglasses or Clansmen or Welsh Archers) might be a good way of representing Ireland and Scotland, if abstract. Including them in Britain would mean ignoring the period of British history when Picts, Scots, Saxons, Anglo-Normans and finally the English were busy killing each other.

We all know they'll be in the add-on. I'm suprised they didn't make it into vanilla, though...

 

[liam1om]

WHB,

I think your missing the point. I was saying that IF the German HAD invaded would you just say o well lets live in peace with them and learn to get along? No you wouldnt, no matter how long it takes you would want you land back, this is how I feel with northern Ireland.

Also, Ireland IS NOT a home nation. It may have been in 1909 but its not now so it should be called it under any circumstance. You dont call Ireland Hibernia do you because it was called it in Roman times? I've also never heard the BBC refer to France as a home nation?