[MOD] Enhanced Conquest Modmod

[Toffer90]

But understand this. There is no one on the Team, save SO, that actually plays this Mod more than me. I'm actually more of a Beta/SVN/Git/ tester than a modder now and before I got to be part of the Team. And have been a tester from the time SO asked me to play his Brand New Mod called Caveman2Cosmos way back in the day (2009/2010). Over all this time I have probably played (if the hours and days were strung together back to back) over a year or more of my leisure time out of the 13 years this Mod has existed. So when I try, in my limited way, to tell you all something about this Mod Please don't brush me off. Please...

I'm probably guilty of not paying you the attention you really deserve, your contribution to C2C directly and indirectly are nigh immeasurable.

On git I added a new config file line some days ago in reaction to your input here, which with the default value I gave it results in doubling the significance of each tech one is behind the player one conquers the city from in regards to how many beakers one get per tech behind. I will also change the base percent so that it modifies the final value rather than being an initial offset, that way it won't reduce the significance of the main factors which are the number of techs behind and relative city size.

 

[Toffer90]

@JosEPh_II Here's the tech conquest changes I made on git, it can be installed into SVN without problems, just overwrite all files.

I've moved the config file into the assets folder for technical git reasons, as git fails to update the file used by the game locally on ones computer if it is in the outermost folder.
Just delete the "Caveman2Cosmos Config.ini" you already have.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thank you for revisiting this.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II Here's the tech conquest changes I made on git, it can be installed into SVN without problems, just overwrite all files.

I've moved the config file into the assets folder for technical git reasons, as git fails to update the file used by the game locally on ones computer if it is in the outermost folder.
Just delete the "Caveman2Cosmos Config.ini" you already have.

@Toffer90
Did you just make this nearly impossible for the player to adjust the Tech Conquest parameters to their Preference?

 

[Toffer90]

@Toffer90
Did you just make this nearly impossible for the player to adjust the Tech Conquest parameters to their Preference?

What do you mean?

 

[JosEPh_II]

What does Population = 543 actually mean? What is it's range? 0 to1000? -1000 to 1000?
Techs Behind Percent = 222 If BPO = 0, then TBP =+2.22("Base Percent"). But since BPO = 0 then +2.22(0)=0
Finally, Final Modifier = 0 so 0(0)=0 ???

[Enhanced Tech Conquest]

# If this is set to False, then you can get beakers towards techs you don't have the prerequisites for.
Check Prereq = True

# Base percentage is an offset value that does not care about how many techs ahead or how big the city in question is.
# It's only real use is if you for some reason want to turn off one or both of the dynamic factors which are city size and tech gap and just use a static factor instead.
# Increasing this offset will reduce the significance both city size and tech gap has on the final result as this factor will become relatively more dominant on the result.
# Using negative value here won't cause you to loose tech progress,
# but it will act as an offset that might stop you from gaining any beakers at all for conquering cities that are small and/or have a small tech gap with you.
Base Percent Offset = 0

# Significance of city size on the final outcome, it interacts with the tech gap but only adds to the final when above zero.
# Zero or less Makes the city size an inert factor that doesn't add any beakers at all.
# This won't add any beakers if both "Techs Behind Percent" and "Base Percent" are set to zero, because its contribution is based on their combined value.
Population Percent = 543

# Significance of the number of techs you are behind the player you conquer the city from on the final outcome.
# Zero or less Makes the number of techs behind an inert factor that doesn't affect the result at all.
# 150 means each tech you are behind equals +1.5 "Base Percent".
Techs Behind Percent = 222

# Directly affects the final amount of beakers one get calculated from the two above factors.
# Zero is no change, 100 doubles, -100 will halve.
Final Modifier = 0

 

[Toffer90]

What does Population = 543 actually mean? What is it's range? 0 to1000? -1000 to 1000?

Its range is 0 to infinity.
Hard to explain what it means, it is just a weight that defines the significance the relative city size has on the final outcome of tech conquest.

Techs Behind Percent = 222 If BPO = 0, then TBP =+2.22("Base Percent"). But since BPO = 0 then +2.22(0)=0

I've been trying to tell you for quite some time now that BPO (what was called "base percent" before) is not a multiplier it is just a value added with + at the start of the calculation, an initial offset that makes it looks like you are at least BPO number of techs behind all other players in the calculation.

So if you are 12 techs behind then the start of the calculation is "BPO + 2.22*12 = 0 + 2.22*12 = 26.64"

26.64 will then be the number that "population percent" use as the basis to decide the relative city size contribution on top of 26.64, so that one get something like 26.64 + 26.64*popFactor

Finally, Final Modifier = 0 so 0(0)=0 ???

So (26.64 + 26.64*popFactor) is used to get ta beaker value, this beaker value can then be further modified by "Final Modifier" (FM)

if FM > 0:

iBeakers = iBeakers * (100 + FM) / 100​

elif FM < 0:

iBeakers = iBeakers * 100 / (100 - FM)​

Nothing happens when FM is zero just like the comment in the ini files says is the case.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hard to explain what it means, it is just a weight that defines the significance the relative city size has on the final outcome of tech conquest.

So it's subjective then.

I've been trying to tell you for quite some time now that BPO (what was called "base percent" before) is not a multiplier it is just a value added with + at the start of the calculation, an initial offset that makes it looks like you are at least BPO number of techs behind all other players in the calculation.

All others? I was under the impression it was from being behind the Tech leader, not all other AI "players. It did not sink in that it was just an arbitrary # and not a modifier, that I confess to.

So now I will have to wait and see what this new formula yields in real time play. Too bad I did not have this installed before I conquered a Russian city that was originally a Barb city (size 10 when I captured it).

As you will see from the screenshot after the capture, under my settings with the Old way, I got 11RP and 272 RP for 2 Religions that an AI already got 2-3 Eras ago. Therefore useless RP. A Nothing burger. Not the overwhelming advantage you thought I was getting.

 

[Toffer90]

As you will see from the screenshot after the capture, under my settings with the Old way, I got 11RP and 272 RP for 2 Religions that an AI already got 2-3 Eras ago. Therefore useless RP. A Nothing burger. Not the overwhelming advantage you thought I was getting.

How big a percent of the tech cost did that amount to, and how many techs did he have that you don't?
The old code you've played with until now would never actually give a tech, it would always stop 1 beaker short of you getting the tech, I've changed that in the new code on git which I sent you, so that you can actually get the techs from conquest now. So if those two religious techs were all the techs he has that you don't, and perhaps you now only lack 1 beaker on them both, then you got as many beakers as theoretically possible from that conquest (I mean, your example don't enlighten me without knowing those unknowns I mentioned).

 

[JosEPh_II]

How big a percent of the tech cost did that amount to, and how many techs did he have that you don't?
The old code you've played with until now would never actually give a tech, it would always stop 1 beaker short of you getting the tech, I've changed that in the new code on git which I sent you, so that you can actually get the techs from conquest now. So if those two religious techs were all the techs he has that you don't, and perhaps you now only lack 1 beaker on them both, then you got as many beakers as theoretically possible from that conquest (I mean, your example don't enlighten me without knowing those unknowns I mentioned).

Techs that give Religions only allows the Tech to be "discovered" once in the game. After that no other "player" can continue to research that Religion giving Tech. That is why I posted it. I did not even bother to research either of those 2 Religions. So I have no idea the % of tech cost it was. Nor did I know then how many techs he was ahead of me. I think he was but only 1 or 2 ahead.(I'm not the Tech leader in this game the Dutch and Celts are ahead). The Siam I'm about to overtake. And the Mongols I am even with now, I think.

That city was Originally a Barb City. The Russians invaded it because I was already at war with the Celts and I was only doing culture warfare on it at that time. Plus it was 1 of 3 Barb cities that had fielded an army that had over 300+ units. I posted screenshots of that barb army. It took many many turns to whittle the barb army down. While holding off the Celtic invasions.

And yes I know the old way never gave a full tech. Leaving at least 1 turn from getting it, but most of the time many turns before researched fully. I don't think I ever said I got a full tech in any of my posts here. Just getting RP towards a tech. And this is why I play with the 1st condition set to False and not True. Even on your new settings.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Techs that give Religions only allows the Tech to be "discovered" once in the game.

I was thinking about this when you mentioned religions - they should be excluded from this system at all but we didn't have such limited one time discovery techs when the original system was programmed, so a filter should be added to not include them as even being considered 'unresearched' techs that can be obtained from a conquest.

And yes I know the old way never gave a full tech. Leaving at least 1 turn from getting it, but most of the time many turns before researched fully. I don't think I ever said I got a full tech in any of my posts here. Just getting RP towards a tech. And this is why I play with the 1st condition set to False and not True. Even on your new settings.

THIS is where it would seem to me that the prereqs should determine if you can complete a tech with conquest earnings. If you don't have the needed tech prereqs, it makes sense you could get research towards a tech but not actually complete it this way until you do have the prereqs. I wonder how easy it would be to set up that difference.

 

[Toffer90]

I was thinking about this when you mentioned religions - they should be excluded from this system at all but we didn't have such limited one time discovery techs when the original system was programmed, so a filter should be added to not include them as even being considered 'unresearched' techs that can be obtained from a conquest.

If one play with limited religion option then tech conquest does exclude the religious techs, but if one don't then under the divine prophet option one needs the religion tech to found the religion and the religion may very well be un-founded even though AI's have the tech.

I wonder if we should make the religious techs global techs, and for the purpose of divine prophets it is enough that any player has invented the tech for you to be able to found it with your prophet, even if you are era's behind the tech that represents the religion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's quite a maze of various rules - I'd forgotten some of that myself and I believe I had done most of the original defining of it all. I'm no longer sure what is necessarily 'best'. The global tech 'concept' for deadend religious techs is a tough thing to manage properly with DP. Doesn't seem right though that it's a total free for all if you don't choose to found with the prophet, but then again it's quite risky to go for a rel tech just to qualify for founding that religion if its already given up its prophet. I have to also consider that the ideal situation would eventually be to remove the free prophets (as an option) from DP and require born prophets to found along WITH the tech as a prereq. I dunno at this point... sigh.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If one play with limited religion option then tech conquest does exclude the religious techs, but if one don't then under the divine prophet option one needs the religion tech to found the religion and the religion may very well be un-founded even though AI's have the tech.

I wonder if we should make the religious techs global techs, and for the purpose of divine prophets it is enough that any player has invented the tech for you to be able to found it with your prophet, even if you are era's behind the tech that represents the religion.

And you also have to consider for those that use Neither Game set up Option of Limited or DP. And also only the Standard Trait system.

In my games the race for founding a Religion is a very serious effort. On Immortal Difficulty I may not found a religion until the Med Era if at all. On Emperor I sometimes can get the Andean or Judaism. With the rare chance of Shinto in this contested race. This also Greatly depends upon the AI Leaders in play. Some of them under the standard Traits Options are Religion hogs.

I also a use the BUG Option in all my games of Multiple Religion Spread. This too is a factor in getting and founding a Religion.
All these Options Used or Unused Have either a Direct or an Indirect effect on Tech Conquest. Which I assume you Toffer are well aware of.

Glad to see you interested in this discussion @Thunderbrd.

 

[Toffer90]

And you also have to consider for those that use Neither Game set up Option of Limited or DP. And also only the Standard Trait system.

I think what I said above would cover any and all options used, I don't think there's any options that gives value to inventing a religious tech that someone else has already invented. I.e. make it a global tech that only one player can invent, then form some rules on how that could work with divine prophets options as the current rule of having to specifically having invented the corresponding religious tech would no longer be a valid rule as then only one player would be able to form it with a great prophet, and as we know, the AI refuse to found religions that is not its favorite one under the divine prophet option; but they may still choose to invent any religious tech I think.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Some of them under the standard Traits Options are Religion hogs.

Traits don't influence personalities. Personalities do influence traits selections though.

Just to point out the difference in decision making AI architecture. However when it comes to religious techs, on complex traits there is a serious flaw in this architecture in that religious traits SHOULD influence the behavior so that those that have selected religious traits that give them cause to want to focus on just one religion should then start acting like it while those that want to hoard religions should act like it. One of those later stage design areas that was never quite addressed. At the moment, fanatical single religion leaders can just as commonly want to hoard lots of religions when it's no longer to their benefit to do so at all.

I also a use the BUG Option in all my games of Multiple Religion Spread

Would never help to found a religion I don't believe, but I love the option as well. No reason that religions shouldn't organically drift into new areas once founded just because other religions are there as well.

All these Options Used or Unused Have either a Direct or an Indirect effect on Tech Conquest

What exactly does Tech Conquest require again? Have we made it so you can't win a tech conquest if you can't capture all techs?

the AI refuse to found religions that is not its favorite one under the divine prophet option

That should not be at all true - it should refuse to do so unless:
1) the favorite religion is no longer up for grabs
2) the favorite religion is more than an era away
3) they have a prophet saved for the shrine for their favorite religion already

Otherwise, if they have only one prophet and the favorite religion hasn't been founded and the religion is fairly close tech-wise, then they'll hold onto the prophet so that as soon as the can get the favorite religion, they can get the shrine for it in the same round.

 

[Toffer90]

That should not be at all true - it should refuse to do so unless:
1) the favorite religion is no longer up for grabs
2) the favorite religion is more than an era away
3) they have a prophet saved for the shrine for their favorite religion already

Otherwise, if they have only one prophet and the favorite religion hasn't been founded and the religion is fairly close tech-wise, then they'll hold onto the prophet so that as soon as the can get the favorite religion, they can get the shrine for it in the same round.

You're probably right, never played with divine prophets; though the point still stand that AI might not use their great prophets to found religions that they can found, meaning if one AI leads the tech race and invents all the religious techs then it would be really unfair for other players with great prophets to not be able to found any religions which the leading AI is delaying to found for some reasons. Hence why I say that if we make all religious techs global techs, we will have to modify some code/rules related to divine prophets to accommodate this change.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You're probably right, never played with divine prophets; though the point still stand that AI might not use their great prophets to found religions that they can found, meaning if one AI leads the tech race and invents all the religious techs then it would be really unfair for other players with great prophets to not be able to found any religions which the leading AI is delaying to found for some reasons. Hence why I say that if we make all religious techs global techs, we will have to modify some code/rules related to divine prophets to accommodate this change.

Yeah well agreed - I think it was actually Joseph_II or DH that was insistent that a player should not be able to found a religion early when not using Choose Religions, so if it's a global tech, then how do you keep a player limited to having to be 'up to snuff' on his own research?

 

[Toffer90]

Yeah well agreed - I think it was actually Joseph_II or DH that was insistent that a player should not be able to found a religion early when not using Choose Religions, so if it's a global tech, then how do you keep a player limited to having to be 'up to snuff' on his own research?

I would say its adequate to just require that the player is in the same era, or greater, than the era the religion belong to. Like: "eh, close enough".

 

[Thunderbrd]

I would say its adequate to just require that the player is in the same era, or greater, than the era the religion belong to. Like: "eh, close enough".

@JosEPh_II I'd be inclined to agree with this but you always complained that DP makes it possible to get religions early so would this bug you?


An alternative would also be to check the prereqs for the religion tech, as in some cases that may make sense too...