Enhanced hero system
- Thread starter Maian
- Start date
Say Deathling, could you compile list that includes all unique units as well? Including Barnaxus, Orthus, etc. You can omit any units that wouldn't fit in the inventory system, such as dragons.
@JuliusBloodmoon:
Dagger goes under simple, so anyone could wield one.
EDIT: Now, that I look at it, more heroes need to be able to use shields. I may allow heroes to gain new proficiencies when they reach high levels...
EDIT2: What about Rantine?
@JuliusBloodmoon:
Dagger goes under simple, so anyone could wield one.
EDIT: Now, that I look at it, more heroes need to be able to use shields. I may allow heroes to gain new proficiencies when they reach high levels...
EDIT2: What about Rantine?
Update: I'm now mostly in the bug-fixing stage. There are two inventory GUI layouts now: one for 1280+ width resolutions, and the other for smaller width ones. I've also got the vault/market screen working. Screenshots are pretty self-explanatory.
The market is the place where heroes can sell and buy special items and get the free tech-based items.
The market is the place where heroes can sell and buy special items and get the free tech-based items.
Attachments
Kael
Deity
It definitly looks like awesome stuff Maian, I cant wait to play with it.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
I don't think it would take a year or two to get between two cities, too...
Kael said:
Heh, the first version will probably be unplayable. Even if miraculously no exceptions pop up, there isn't much content.
@Deathling:
With the retreat code, there could be a tactical choice between dismounting or not dismounting. Staying on the mount would give the hero extra withdrawal bonuses, while getting off it would grant terrain defense bonuses.
I think I've fixed most of the outstanding bugs. Item and inventory data are saved and loaded correctly between game saves/loads and doesn't corrupt other games. GUI is functional - haven't met any exceptions or unusual behavior so far. Item and inventory code architecture works pretty well.
So here's what's left to do:
- Item info display: Display attributes of the item, including unit and civ bonuses.
- Market: Make tech-based items appear in the market when the tech for the item comes out. Item prices. What about the non-tech-based market? The occasional sweet deal from a shady dealer? Etc.
- Content: Need to create a lot more items. Need to figure out how they're different from each other, what unit and civ bonuses they provide. Would appreciate any input here.
- The ground: How will items be represented on the ground? Should there be multiple layers on each plot, e.g. surface and underground? How would underground items be detected, and would a worker be requird to dig for underground items? Etc.
- Balance: Each hero, when created, should have approximately the same combat effectiveness of the hero in vanilla FfH.
- Limitations: The backpack, vault, and market sizes are limited to 18, 36, and 18, respectively. This is a GUI limitation that I can try to work around in the future. Or are these limits large enough?
So here's what's left to do:
- Item info display: Display attributes of the item, including unit and civ bonuses.
- Market: Make tech-based items appear in the market when the tech for the item comes out. Item prices. What about the non-tech-based market? The occasional sweet deal from a shady dealer? Etc.
- Content: Need to create a lot more items. Need to figure out how they're different from each other, what unit and civ bonuses they provide. Would appreciate any input here.
- The ground: How will items be represented on the ground? Should there be multiple layers on each plot, e.g. surface and underground? How would underground items be detected, and would a worker be requird to dig for underground items? Etc.
- Balance: Each hero, when created, should have approximately the same combat effectiveness of the hero in vanilla FfH.
- Limitations: The backpack, vault, and market sizes are limited to 18, 36, and 18, respectively. This is a GUI limitation that I can try to work around in the future. Or are these limits large enough?
QES
Court Jester
Maian said:
Thoughts:
- The limitations on the backpaack, vault and market should be enough, i recomend coming up with "obsolesense" so that objects are replaced with their equivilant/superiors when they arrive. Also, I recomend each "basic" type of weapon have upgrades (bronze sword, iron sword, steel sword, mithril sword) but that perhaps the icon need only change color for these other than the str of the weapon, etc.
- i HIGHLY recomend that weapons be kept simple, and instead of coming up with a ton of "basic" weapons, you instead choose maybe 4-5 basic weapons, and EVERYTHING else becomes a unique weapon that is questable, or found only through effort, not merely purchased in the market.
- Have the purchasable "main/basic" weapons/equipment, NOT show up in the vault unless purchased, Have a menu instead of actual items. This would mean that the item wouldnt even "exist" until purchased, cutting down on clutter, Perhaps there could be an "upgrade/tradein" button to reduce costs of future purchases for upgraded (of same-type) equipment. Thereby eliminating clutter some more.
- If you want a black market, I would tie it into technologies associeated with specific "shady" concepts. The theives guild may have to be built before you have access to "Blotark's poison blades" in the market, for example. It should still be purchaseable IN the market, but perhaps another building is required for its presence there at all.
- I STRONGLY feel that Forges, not markets should be requirments for higher level equpiment. Maybe early in the game the excuse could be made that the item was "forged elsewhere" but for armor and arms of higher quality, id push for the Forge requirement.
-Content: I have two ideas on this, one i've already stated to avoid paper-rock-scissoring. The other is this - have each item tied to a building (basic items here only). In this, each basic item could only be made in specific cities that had all the required buildings. This consequence would be that whatever a civilization is "naturally doing", like building lots of archery ranges, would reflect that the Hero has available - like bows. If you connect types of weapons to types of bulidings, then the "natural ebb and flow" of production would determine what choices the hero has, and it becomes less of a concern as to the individual balances between weapon choices. Balance still needs to be made, but it becomes a "less pressing" issue. I also think that a MAJORITY of the eventual Hero-based item products, should be quested, and that "mundane" items should be only used as a means to advance the hero into another tier of play. "Special" items, and wonderous/magical items should push the player into a higher tier AND provide some sort of special bonus. In this, all "basic" weapons may only want very small and slight differences, and magical items will have very specific and glorious differences. The choice in the end will be Magic vs. Magic vs. Higher-leveld mundane. The pain again, should come in having to chose between all-goods, instead of and not trying to ascertain what sort of defense my potential enemies might have.
Slashing - Allows for a sheild?
Bashing - Gives defensive bonuses despite being a weapon?
Bow/pierce - first strike/withdraw chance bow/spear?
-Qes
I agree, newer items should obselete older ones of the same item type.
The tech-based weapon types are: bow, crossbow, sword, axe, spear, pike, warhammer, maces, dagger, quarterstaff (or maybe generalized to staff). There's no clear "basic" weapon here, nor is there a well-defined hierarchy. Some types of weapons will simply never be produced by a civ. For example, elves will never make axes, since they make swords. Likewise, dwarves will be using warhammers. Not all heroes can use each weapon type as well. For ex, dagger is inferior to most other weapons but is one of the few weapons that a spell-oriented hero can wield (if that hero doesn't have a staff).
I still need to think about what item classes each hero can use. From Deathling's list, it's clear that some heroes are pretty gimped in the types of weapons they can wield. At the same time, the graphics issue is really a problem - I wonder how much I can deviate from the weapons/armor shown in the default graphics. For ex, since axes and swords fall under the same item class, Barnaxus, who wields some sort of sword in his model, can also wield an axe right now.
That said, the vast majority of items will be special items. (Though I have to wonder if there is a 255 promotion limit. If there is, that I means I can only put in another 29 items, perhaps an extra 10 if I remove some of the extraneous promotions. If worse comes to worst, I can make Python-based database of items.)
Taking all the basic items, subtracting away the ones that civs can't produce, and adding all the special market items, will hopefully fit within 18 spaces.
Also, the market and vault are totally seperate entities. Things in the market can't "clutter" the vault.
Hmm...tying the black market with the thief techs and thieves guild is a good idea.
I think you're misunderstanding something. The market I'm talking about is not the market building - they're totally unrelated. It's a national market that can be accessed from any of your cities. The market building won't be a prerequisite for any items, unless you want an apple item
I'm not sure tying tech-based items to buildings is necessary. While it is more realistic, it seems to be an unnecessary complexity.
I don't see what's wrong with a counter system or "trying to ascertain what sort of defense my potential enemies might have". The hero may be unique, but they're not going to "go up against everything". Each weapon will provide the same or similar benefits to the stats of the normal units that carry those weapons.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Maian said:
I wouldn't worry much, if at all, about the visual representations of the heroes and weapons. Heck, plenty of units don't even visibly attack their enemies.
That said, be careful about making heroes more or less powerful based on the variety of items they can wield. If a hero is determined to not wield many weapons, then it might be a good idea to increase their relative power (in some way) to another hero that was supposed to be of the same power level in vanilla FfH
lol but has a greater weapon variety. Wow, I made that more complex than it needed to be. Just keep in mind that flexibility has a strength of its own.QES
Court Jester
Maian said:I think you're misunderstanding something. The market I'm talking about is not the market building - they're totally unrelated. It's a national market that can be accessed from any of your cities. The market building won't be a prerequisite for any items, unless you want an apple item
Ah, well in that case, nm.
I agree, was just throwin out ideas.
The main problem i see with counter-counter-counter methods of weapon-ing, is that it would encourage the player to constantly be switching weapons instead of just sticking with something. Now, if most weapons are not available because of civ traits (a cool idea), then this is reduced, but still, most heros (as i know them now) are used against everything, and generally not "held back" from fighting, unless the odds are overwhelmingly against them. Heros are supposed to be interseting and hardpointe type units, and your heros will be utilized the same. If you make a counter-counter system, that will generally only apply to hero v hero combat. If your "counter" system is more talking about supplements to promotions, then its just a specialized unit. I guess I'm confused about the role you see heros as having now. I see so much potential, but now do not see the direction that potential is taking. I know how cool rock-paper-scissors warfare can be, and the application of technique in timing those counters is a fun strategic style of play, but since heros are rare, they're gonna be used fairly often. If you see there being as many heros as unit-types, then i see the need for countering. But as is, either Heros are uber-specialized (repeateing promotions with items), or are anti-hero. And if heros turn into anti-hero combat units, they're use will be limited. I'm hoping that hero units will be utlized in the eventual "quest" portion of the game, so i assume that eventually equipment will determine which kinds of quests the particular hero may undertake (with some notion of success). But before quests are implented, i dont see the purpose of heros. :?
-Qes
P.s. I WANT this application of heros, i'm excited by it, I...just dont know what its supposed/going to do.
I'm fine with the hero vs. hero combat aspect. It want heroes to be powerful, such that the best way to deal with a hero is to either use another hero or an anti-hero unit. I also want the hero to be customizable, but to a limit. The player can arm and level the hero to either try to patch up the hero's weaknesses or focus on the hero's strengths.
With that said, I do agree that a constant switching of weapons to handle the current enemy is undesirable and annoying. I may return to the weapon specialization idea, this time focusing on the actual weapon type (e.g. sword) rather than weapon class (e.g. slashing). At the same time, I don't want to add too many new promotions.
I also haven't decided to put any counter bonuses on armors, so the counter-counter system you speak of is non-existent for now.
With that said, I do agree that a constant switching of weapons to handle the current enemy is undesirable and annoying. I may return to the weapon specialization idea, this time focusing on the actual weapon type (e.g. sword) rather than weapon class (e.g. slashing). At the same time, I don't want to add too many new promotions.
I also haven't decided to put any counter bonuses on armors, so the counter-counter system you speak of is non-existent for now.
