Well said. Perhaps it would be more balancing if only the first idea I mentioned is implemented, and the second one I mentioned, the one that you are currently using, could be scrapped or toned down in favor of it. With this idea, the chance that the hero will die from a battle is (1-[percentage victory chance, as a decimal])^2 out of one. So, throwing your hero into a 30% victory chance battle means that you have a ~50-50 chance of your hero coming out alive, while a 99.4% battle is almost guaranteed to see the hero live, at 99.64%. (I know you already know this, I'm just pointing it out for the less mathematically inclined)
Question: Should it be possible to store items in cities? According to the current design, they can only be stored in a nation-wide vault. The advantages of the nation-wide vault is that it's simple and you don't have to search all the cities for an item. The advantage of city-specific vaults is that it could allow more strategic options (items giving city bonuses) and I suppose it would be more realistic.
Nah, one national vault is fine. I could imagine a runner being sent with the precious items from city to city. As for the city-specific effects... they don't really have to be in yet, I suppose. The important thing is when the equipment is on the hero!
The first version isn't going to have any special items. Just basic items that would make hero's useful throughout the game. I still have to go through all the heroes and see what type of items they use.
In fact, I'd appreciate it if someone could compile a list of heroes and the weapon/armor classes they can use. A list of weapons with the tech dependencies and weapon proficiency requirements would be nice too.
Weapon classes/proficiencies: bow, slashing, blunt, piercing
Armor classes/proficiencies: leather, chainmail, plate
Other classes/proficiencies: shield, horse, simple (all heroes have this)
Items that are in the game now (but don't have stats yet): shortbow, longbow, shortsword, longsword, axe, battleaxe, warhammer, mace, spear, lance, dagger, quarterstaff, leather armor, chainmail armor, plate armor, wooden shield, horse.
Don't know when I'll release it. There's still a lot of work to be done. BTW, Civ4's GUI API really sucks...
Non-item-related news: Implemented two promotions called Hero Killer and Hero Guardian (need better names). Assassins have the hero killer promotions. They put a 50% withdrawal chance penalty on heroes they fight with. Hero guardian units have 100% bonus against assassins. Todo: somehow force the assassin to attack guardian units, then hero units, in a stack.
Question: Should it be possible to store items in cities? According to the current design, they can only be stored in a nation-wide vault. The advantages of the nation-wide vault is that it's simple and you don't have to search all the cities for an item. The advantage of city-specific vaults is that it could allow more strategic options (items giving city bonuses) and I suppose it would be more realistic.
Considering each turn is a full year, one could assume that the item would be brought TO the hero when they arrived in town by some herald or "keeper" or something. So a national-vault is the way to go.
This is looking VERY tasty for heros. I would love having Hero's with equipment. However, i might suggest something.
A) Let us not abandon promotions. Like "skill-levels" promotions provide a very cool way to differentiate units.
B) Equipment should function (in each type) as one thing, merely with better or worse abilities. For examples, I'm not sure we want to take the time to differentiate Axes and swords outside of whatever happenstance difference in str they might give. While it would be cool to give them different funcaionatlity, i think we should leave "Specialization" to promotions.
Weapons should be additions to DAMAGE per round in combat. Armor should be subtractions (I think this is more interesting than a direct strength increase.)
Armor should also affect mobility (either retreat chances, or movement).
Saddlebags/mount equipment should affect movement and perhaps healing rate.
Shields (if added, would be yet another form of damage reduction in combat rounds, perhaps a % instead of a flat rate.) If sheilds are added, and i think they should, Perhaps Axes prohibit the use of sheilds, while swords are always considered "one-handed" and allow for sheild use. Axes (as two-handed) could be more damaging then, and swords would allow for other armerment.
Rings/Boots/necklaces...etc. Should all be some sort of strange qualifier. But pains should be taken to avoid repetition of possible promotions - for its cool that the hero him/herself is skilled, as opposed to some item giving them that ability. Necklace of immunity to death spells. Or "Ring of Fireball" granting access to that spell, are a few interesting ways to implement this.
Just brainfodder,
-Qes
EDIT: Im also unsure if you need proficiencies. Simply by the virtue of having to CHOOSE between different weapons makes each hero unique. ANd it saves you a lot of time. Simply Have each "type" of weapon function differently. In this, the hero's choice in weapon becomes his boon and his bane, he "cant have it all". So proficiency really becomes unnecessary.
Example:
Spoiler:
Weapon
Bows: Firststrike +Damage
Swords: +damage and One-handed
Axes: ++Damage
Blunt: +damage ignores armor (useful against other heros)
Spears/lances: +Damage +%chance to withdraw
Staves: Increased ability to cast per turn. -damage taken (nice for a weapon)
Wands: Increased chance of spell affecting target, one-handed
Body
Light/leather/cloth Armor: -damage taken, no mobility/magic peanlty
Medium/chain armor: --damage taken, small mobility/magic peanlty
heavy/plate armor: ---damage taken, large mobility/magic penalty
Offhand
Shield: Sword-only weapon, -%damagetaken
Torch: +1 visability
Escape Stone: Click to escape to capital.
Misc
Poison: % chance to kill unit outright if a unit withdraws.
Ring of Fireball: Grants fireball spell
Necklace of preservation: Immune to death magic/creatures.
Mount
Saddlebags: Mobility +1
Barding: %Withdraw chance, -damagetaken
Stirrups: First strike chance, %withdraw chance
Using these premises, a Archer Hero who uses the stirrups would have a lot of first striking chances and withdrawl, making it a fast hitting skirmisher. Or they could choose A spear with the stirrups, making them excellent radiers. It would be silly to wear anything heavier than light armor, becuase it would ****** the % withdrawl and mobility of the hero. Similiarly a hero might choose heavy armor, a sheild and sword, and be very hard to harm. Or He might chose to wield an axe and wear medium armor to be more of an assult unit, OR He might use a quarter staff, and light armor and function as a quick and mobile guard. Etc. Each choice creates a different outcome, without the need for "proficiencies" keeping the heros bogged down.
The purpose of proficiencies is to differentiate between heroes. For example, Gilden Silveric is clearly an archer. Thus his proficiencies would be bow, leather armor, and simple (all heroes have simple). Magnadine's proficiencies may be slashing, piercing, plate armor, horse, and simple.
I'm also considering each level of proficiency adding some new skill to heroes, or rather promotions that depend on proficiencies. For example, a hero with bow proficiency can get the marksman proficiency a lot faster than another unit would.
I'll have to figure out what the exact differences between each type of weapon are. For sure, they'll have bonuses against certain types of units. I'm also leaning toward an armor "resistance" system. Some armors would provide resistance against a certain type of weapon. For ex, leather armor could provide 10% resistance to slashing.
The difference between swords and axes is the civilization prereq. Some civs, e.g. elves, will produce swords, others, e.g. Doviello, will produce axes. I haven't decided if there will be another difference between the two. Maybe different bonuses against certain types of units?
My current plan for how weapons and armor affect combat mechanics: Weapon will increase strength (just like Heroic Strength does). This is better than adding damage to each combat round, because:
1) Weapons will be the way to "upgrade" heroes so that early heroes can stay useful later in the game.
2) It would just look weird to see a strength 5 Basium loaded with uber items massacring everything. It would be easier to compare unit strengths if we stick as much as possible to the strength system.
3) Increasing weapon strength already does increase damage in each combat round. It also decreases the opponent's damage, but that's a side effect I can live with. Strength also determines the probability of hitting the opponent in each round.
I already plan for armor to subtract damage each combat round. This would make heavy armor heroes incredibly useful against weenies (even better than units with lots of first strikes).
There are two more equipment slots available that I can use according to how the GUI is planned. I could make them necklace, and ring/bracelet respectively.
The purpose of proficiencies is to differentiate between heroes. For example, Gilden Silveric is clearly an archer. Thus his proficiencies would be bow, leather armor, and simple (all heroes have simple). Magnadine's proficiencies may be slashing, piercing, plate armor, horse, and simple.
I'm also considering each level of proficiency adding some new skill to heroes, or rather promotions that depend on proficiencies. For example, a hero with bow proficiency can get the marksman proficiency a lot faster than another unit would.
I'll have to figure out what the exact differences between each type of weapon are. For sure, they'll have bonuses against certain types of units. I'm also leaning toward an armor "resistance" system. Some armors would provide resistance against a certain type of weapon. For ex, leather armor could provide 10% resistance to slashing.
The difference between swords and axes is the civilization prereq. Some civs, e.g. elves, will produce swords, others, e.g. Doviello, will produce axes. I haven't decided if there will be another difference between the two. Maybe different bonuses against certain types of units?
My current plan for how weapons and armor affect combat mechanics: Weapon will increase strength (just like Heroic Strength does). This is better than adding damage to each combat round, because:
1) Weapons will be the way to "upgrade" heroes so that early heroes can stay useful later in the game.
2) It would just look weird to see a strength 5 Basium loaded with uber items massacring everything. It would be easier to compare unit strengths if we stick as much as possible to the strength system.
3) Increasing weapon strength already does increase damage in each combat round. It also decreases the opponent's damage, but that's a side effect I can live with. Strength also determines the probability of hitting the opponent in each round.
I already plan for armor to subtract damage each combat round. This would make heavy armor heroes incredibly useful against weenies (even better than units with lots of first strikes).
There are two more equipment slots available that I can use according to how the GUI is planned. I could make them necklace, and ring/bracelet respectively.
It sounds cool. I worry about one thing. WHen you make a weapon useful against "Types of units" how is this in any way different from the typed promotions? If a weapon is useful agianst melee, why not simply take the melee promotion? Is the idea even to speclize BEYOND normal capability? or to replace 'promotion's for units all together? Since normal (non-hero) units can specialize, much in the same way we are describing, it strikes me that your inventing a whoel new mechanic for something that's already in place. I assume this is not your intent, and im curious to learn more.
Thoughts on awesomeness:
Spoiler:
I agree about the weapons now that i think on it (for str uses). But i'm not sure if you want to have weapons emulate different promotion styles. Also the "paper/rock/scissor" method of weapon-typing creates a mirco-environment of the system that already exists in the game. Unit types are virtually paper/rock/scissor, and to make heros have equipment that does the same, creates repetition on a very small and unnessary scale.
Perhaps instead of trying to type weapons to armor, and creating a counter-counter system, you could simply alot each weapon a "style" and armor could have the bland notion of doing what it does. My suggestion earlier was much akin to this. Make chosing weapons not a choice in a paper/rock/scissor decision and counter process, but instead a choice between one another. Instead of making weapons in relation to armor, make weapons in relation to weapons, forcing a choice between "two good options". The same should be said of armor. Light armor might provide less protection, but heavy armor would bog the unit down.
Simply, I love this thread and have followed it for a while, and im getting excited to see new heros. But i worry that heros will be no different from regular units, replacing promotions with equipment that functions nearly the same. And Paper/rock/scissoring the situation reminds me of "which units" should i build to counter their units? Hero's whom are unique dont particularly need the 'counter' system, as they're going to come up against (hopefully) everything. Allowing them to retain promotions maintains both flavors simultaniously.
I worded the "bonuses against different type of units" wrong. I meant that the weapons should have the bonuses that normal units with those weapons have. For example, wielding a spear will grant the hero a bonus against mounted. A bow would grant first strikes, etc.
I haven't really thought out how promotions should work with heroes. I'd rather not deviate from the normal system too much, or create new promotions just for heroes (which is why I'm considering scrapping the multiple proficiency level idea).
I don't intend for heroes to be all-purpose. A hero will have its innate advantages and innate disadvantages. While I agree that each type of weapon should have its own style and that each style has its own merits, I don't see why there can't be a counter system integrated into it as well. The more different each item is, the better (as long as things don't get too complex).
Concerning armor, I'm not sure how restricting mobility would work or if it even makes sense if you look at other units. For instance, knights aren't slow, yet they wear heavy armor. The only unit in the game that has a movement penalty cost that I can think of at the moment are golems with the heavy promotion. Every other "heavy" unit moves at the same speed the "light" units can move at.
Let me try to explain the underlying philosophy behind the way heroes are differentiated. There are two types of RPGs out there. Those that restrict heroes to classes (e.g. EQ), and those that have fairly freeform ones (e.g. Oblivion). There are advs and disadvs to both systems. The advs of the restrictive type are that it's simple, diversity is gauranteed, and it's much easier to balance. The advs of the freeform type are that it allows much more customizability, it's more realistic/internally consistent, and it can potentially introduce even more diversity (yet risk losing it to "template classes").
I'm leaning toward making the hero system the restrictive type. As I said before, I want heroes to have their own innate advs and disadvs. They can either try to cover up their disadvs or focus on their advs.
I'm leaning toward making the hero system the restrictive type. As I said before, I want heroes to have their own innate advs and disadvs. They can either try to cover up their disadvs or focus on their advs.
I like it. It could add the much needed flavor to each of the heros. As it stands, there isn't much difference between Valin and Rosier.
Has it been decided how these weapon promotions will be attained? Would be neat if the just basic upgrades could be bought.
The legendary itesm could be sought after through a quest or even obtained through battle. For instance, say two heros meet in the battlefield, the winner would be able 'loot' the corpse of the dead hero.
Quests might be a bit more tricky. Maybe something along the lines like in the Vikings Warlords scenenario. You research a tech which gives you a map that reveals the general location. Maybe this could trigger some kind of event like a demon/hill giant uprising once the hero reaches the desitination.
Cloth "armor" is part of the simple class. I can't imagine why anyone couldn't wear clothes I'm not sure if I'll have different bow and crossbow classes. They look different, for sure, but semantically speaking, they're fairly similar. I'll think about it...
Speaking of looks, one thing that I should mention is that I'm limited by the available graphics. A hero is always going to look the same, no matter what weapons it has. That won't change unless I get new graphics for every hero/weapon/armor combination, or when someone finds a way to add separate weapon/armor models/textures to heroes, both of which are very unlikely. This is another reason I'm opting for the "classes" RPG type.
I think I'll make an exception for the War Machine. It doesn't fit in with the hero system. Later on, I can make an extension in which the war machine has different equipment slots, but that's low priority.
@Sisonpyh:
Weapon proficiencies can't be gained. They are preset for each hero. I would actually like there to be some customizability here, but again, I'm limited by the graphics problem.
When a hero kills a unit, the hero will get all the items of that unit. Actually, maybe not all. Haven't decided whether some of the items are lost/broken during the battle. Special items will never be lost in this way, only normal ones.
As for quests...that's gonna take a while to implement. In fact, after I implement this item system and fix various bugs, I'm probably going to take a small break (I'm getting a bit behind on my RL work because of this project).
Another screenshot, this time showing item transfer between heroes.
There's a serious flaw in this GUI, and that's that it requires 1280 width resolution. I may have to rethink the GUI design...
Also, I'm going to limit the backpack size of heroes to 18, simply my attempts to add a scrollbar or slider to the backpack have all failed, and although I could keep trying and perhaps eventually succeed, I figured that 18 slots should be enough space and that a backpack size limit isn't bad. The vault will be able to store a LOT more space, maybe 100+ items.
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