[BTS] Enter the Shadows: Prince(ess) Catherine of Russia

[krikav]

@cseanny Promotes an unorthodox gambit that certainly has benefits, but I would stay to a way more normal agri->bw opening here.

I don't think I would go for the cows, but rather just farm corn and rice and then I think BW is in and it's off to chopping. If there is still time I would farm the FP as well. (I think that FP should be a farm for the rest of the game anyway, it will help the future gold-city with it's dreaded -4F curse.)
That city at the hill by the dual gold would take care of all commerce that is needed for the forseeable future. So wheel+pottery can be postponed if desirable.

I would like a second worker quite early, as miing that cursed desert gold takes forever.
Chops into worker(s), whips reserved for settlers.
Once you have workers enough to sync so you land two forests at the same turn (or overflow) then thats OK into settlers too.

Oh, and I really dislike a capital without freshwater. Don't think I would have had the stomach to settle there, I would likely have sacrificed the hammer and settled SW of the stone.
Then again.. two cereal resources does make it less daunting.

 

[cseanny]

@KIG If you don't like to warrior rush just forgoe that part. As far as the rest of the build/tech path, it should easily get you the fastest start. It works better on Deity/Immortal due to more trade potential, but even at Prince I'd imagine you can at least get BW, Pottery, Myst, Fish, and maybe a few more early.

CRE and IMP makes early BW less attractive, and beelining for Currency will allow you to spam more cities in the long run, thus, still a better start imo. And to throw out there, it's not a gambit of any sort, but rather, a solid, stock and barrel, go to build.

 

[krikav]

What I'm trying to do is learn how to play so that I can step up to Monarch and above. I'm hoping to pick up more broadly transferable strategies that I can use to climb up the difficulty ladder.

Thats a very sensible attitude!

I tend to be a bit of an eejit and lose scouts to lions more often than I should but I'll try to keep this one alive as long as possible. My goal with this scout should be to try and find city sites, rather than meet every AI on my continent, correct? So I shouldn't send them too far north because I'd be neglecting the south. Correct?

Handling the initial scout is one of the last things that I learned to pick up. I was always to eager to gain complete information.
Playing game-of-the-month where reloading is impossible kind of cured me of the worst of this habit.

At higher difficulties, the AIs will take care of the meetings as they have a myriad of units roaming around.

Your starting scout (or warrior in other cases) main task is to find the spot for your city #2 and keep that area safe.
If it can do more than that, thats fine but this primary task should never be compromised.
This can mean that the starting warrior can move 3-4 turns and then end up at T5 just fogbusting up until around T30 when you settle that city. Not a glamorous task but still essential.

 

[krikav]

CRE and IMP makes early BW less attractive.

You think? How so? My opinion was that they go hand in hand.
Nice 2pop whips of settlers, and likewise of libraries.
And the more raw hammers from chops benefit from both traits.

Don't want to derail the thread too much, but I would really like your opinions on this.
Have started to see more and more occasions where early writing before BW makes sense, but I don't really see it here and now.

 

[Fippy]

Oh, and I really dislike a capital without freshwater. Don't think I would have had the stomach to settle there, I would likely have sacrificed the hammer and settled SW of the stone.
Then again.. two cereal resources does make it less daunting.

I would say caring about fresh water can be a weakness, if you allow me that comment Unless there are plenty floodplains in the bfc, it's normally unimpotant and one of those habits that i dropped happily.

BW topic, not trait related for me..i would want BW after Agri here with all traits.
Avoiding early BW is sometimes connected to very poor commerce starts (in some of Lain's videos or games i.e.), where you are afraid of dropping into research holes cos it's expensive early and gives no return.

 

[cseanny]

@Fippy BW topic, it's also used with double gold, HoF starts http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=29617 . Imo, Catherine is specially equipped to bypass BW due to already saving hammers on the Library and Settlers, AND, the ability to run scientist, and still pump out Settlers fast enough.

I think some of you are undervaluing the power of mass expansion with Currency, of course, assuming expansion is wanted/needed (which I assumed the OP wanted to in order to learn the basics). I'm working all day, but when I'm off I'll play a shadow game to 1000 BC. I'd be curious to see how each opening pans out.

 

[krikav]

I thought it was you who learned me to care about freshwater @Fippy, but apparantly it was Izuul:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-sitting-bull-of-the-native-americans.522329/
"Not having fresh water for the capitol kinda stinks though."

You are certainly right in that I shouldn't place too much weight on it and I thank for the comment.
It's the food balance thats important, and if there is enough food you can iron through any unhealth.

 

[lymond]

Well, that is indeed a juicy start...surprise surprise

@cseanny approach is certainly very viable on this level, and very much a HOF type tactic that can pay huge dividends. @krikav It would net you a fast new cap like city and possibly a free worker. Eschewing early BW with cre/imp has merit as your settlers/libs are faster. However, I agree with most that this method is counter to basic learning methods for this game, and I'm glad that KIG recognizes that here.

Right now, I'm inclined to follow BW with AH and settle the desert hill 1N of gold (edit: just realized that you marked that spot "city here later"..actually it would be my first)..nice city with cows and can share rice and help work cottages for cap. Second city probably on the spice that can share that cow with Moscow as well.

If horses are near, I'd be tempted to go for HAs soon after Writing. Bull must die and his cap is actually very nice.

edit: well, fresh water is always nice krikav, but it won't prevent me from settling a better city or bonus tile.

@KIG Also, I want to mention that I would not worry too much about the types of leaders are what not at this level, although it is good that you are at least thinking about it. With exceptions like ISO situations, on this level you are usually always going to kill off any neighbors fairly early. And with our help, you will expand much faster than you are used to so no worry on grabbing spots.

Yes, the Scout should circle around your cap initially finding all good city spots nearby, then plant somewhere nearby in a spawnbusting position.

 

[krikav]

Yes, AH after BW is what I would lean toward too, but way too early to tell and plenty of chances to evaluate differently.

 

[sampsa]

CRE and IMP makes early BW less attractive

You think? How so? My opinion was that they go hand in hand.
Nice 2pop whips of settlers, and likewise of libraries.
And the more raw hammers from chops benefit from both traits.

I think with these tiles settler whips are great. Without mines, chops and whips it's hard to leverage IMP settlers. Agree that CRE makes delaying BW more attractive, because 45 libraries are possible to get up in a reasonable time without whips/chops.

 

[KIG]

Played out until I got to BW on turn 23. Revolted into slavery given that the plan was to whip out a settler so I didn't think that needed discussion.

Spoiler :

Scouting probably wasn't the most efficient pathing but this is what I've turned up so far. One warrior built and fortified in the capital. I'll start matching him out in a minute. Probably should have done that initially but it didn't occur to me until I started this writeup. Moved next to a lion which was out of sight, but survived, then survived the wolf which came afterwards, which I also had no idea of the location. Promoted to woodsman and kept it moving rather than spend time healing. Currently it's on 0.7 strength and behind the plains hill due west of the capital. Started out north then looped back around to check out the south. No copper in the initial sites I'd marked for a city, but there's some not too far away to the East.

Religion wise, doesn't seem like Bull got either of them. Buddhism was founded several turns before Hinduism, which makes me think that it went to a religious leader that doesn't start with mysticism but that may be totally off piste. Also, weird that Buddhism is attached to a tech that takes less time to research than Hinduism given that Gautama was himself a Hindu but ya know it's a game, not a history lesson.

Spoiler :

I'm in anarchy at this second. Then next turn I guess start research on AH and see where the horses are.

Well, that is indeed a juicy start...surprise surprise

@cseanny approach is certainly very viable on this level, and very much a HOF type tactic that can pay huge dividends. @krikav It would net you a fast new cap like city and possibly a free worker. Eschewing early BW with cre/imp has merit as your settlers/libs are faster. However, I agree with most that this method is counter to basic learning methods for this game, and I'm glad that KIG recognizes that here.

Right now, I'm inclined to follow BW with AH and settle the desert hill 1N of gold (edit: just realized that you marked that spot "city here later"..actually it would be my first)..nice city with cows and can share rice and help work cottages for cap. Second city probably on the spice that can share that cow with Moscow as well.

I'd marked it for later because I figured it wasn't that strong early due to overlap and not having that much food on its own. Again, speaks to my prioritisation more than anything.

If horses are near, I'd be tempted to go for HAs soon after Writing. Bull must die and his cap is actually very nice.

edit: well, fresh water is always nice krikav, but it won't prevent me from settling a better city or bonus tile.

@KIG Also, I want to mention that I would not worry too much about the types of leaders are what not at this level, although it is good that you are at least thinking about it. With exceptions like ISO situations, on this level you are usually always going to kill off any neighbors fairly early. And with our help, you will expand much faster than you are used to so no worry on grabbing spots.

Yes, the Scout should circle around your cap initially finding all good city spots nearby, then plant somewhere nearby in a spawnbusting position.

Duly noted. Not doing that is why I tend to fail when left to my own devices.

 

[sampsa]

Well played so far. Revolting to slavery immediately was good, as yes, you will whip the 1st settler AND you are still improving rice, so revolting now doesn't cost a turn working improved rice, but revolting just before settler-whip would. Of course, when not whipping the 1st settler, it's best to switch when the 1st settler is moving towards city site, or later. I think you should choose AH despite being in anarchy, otherwise the possible overflow is dumped into a tech chosen by the game (often archery).

The big strategic choice is now where to settle 2nd city. Either to grab the copper intending to take SB out with axes asap or gold+cow I guess.

 

[krikav]

@KIG Regarding cold/cow spot with rice+floodplain overlap: "I figured it wasn't that strong early due to overlap and not having that much food on its own."

It's strong precisely because it has overlap, that enables it to get a improved food source from turn one.
Also, whenever you are putting the initial turn into a settler, or landing a chop into a worker, then this city can borrow both these tiles and grow on them.

Almost all the time when I'm playing, I have considerable overlap between all my cities, and constantly juggling around the tiles for maximum efficiency.

 

[lymond]

I'd marked it for later because I figured it wasn't that strong early due to overlap and not having that much food on its own. Again, speaks to my prioritisation more than anything.

Lessoned learned: Overlap is a great thing!

I'm inclined to go for the gold/cow spot first for a couple of reason. Prince AI expands slowly so you may very well get 2 cities down before Bull even gets one, but on the off chance that he settles that spot - and I think very likely if he does it would be exactly on that spot - it would be a problem indeed. On higher levels I would be settling that first if I could...no question. Well, of course, there is the copper to consider as well, which looks nice for settling on the Spices 1N of clams. However, depending on timings you might find yourself up against Dogs if you try rushing axes and even his archers can give you some very bad results.

Anyway, both cow/gold and spice/clam/copper are two good first cities with nice overlap with Moscow for tile sharing and bringing in goodies.

Yep, sampsa is right. queue up AH to take the beakers this turn. Beaker OF and the static 1bpt apply during anarchy. And yep, you want to switch to slavery asap for that 4>2 settler whip..likely into another worker but you could put OF into new settler as well, especially since IMP.

Lastly, make sure that scout hops up on that PH 1E

 

[Fippy]

Thinking about what AIs can do for you, or what their strengths are also plays a role ofc.
Assume you would play on Emperor or another high difficulty for you, then rushing Bully with Axes would be something to avoid.
He has strong Archers, and even deity players would think 2x before attacking him with 5str units on say Immortal.

Can usually be done since AIs are not brilliant with warfare (but still better and more dangerous than in some other games ),
but you would trust on some good luck with the rng. Axes can die against his super Archers without doing damage.

So there's also a possibility of using more peaceful AIs for trade routes, and other trading.
Many will never attack at pleased (including Bully), some others you would be cautious about having around (like Sury or Giggles, not just warmongers).
While true that he will often poison cities, it's harmless overall.
He's also notoriously bad for tech trading (high req of other AIs knowing the tech before he gives one away), but as mentioned he could still provide trade routes, some barb defense and resources.

On Prince cities are rather cheap, but on higher diffs it's always worth considering going peaceful as well if you have enuf land of your own.
So overall you can make a decision on what you prefer seeing, with keeping in mind that rushing him could be tricky on some other levels.

 

[sampsa]

Thinking about what AIs can do for you, or what their strengths are also plays a role ofc.
Assume you would play on Emperor or another high difficulty for you, then rushing Bully with Axes would be something to avoid.
He has strong Archers, and even deity players would think 2x before attacking him with 5str units on say Immortal.

Yep, I certainly wouldn't ever plan to attack SB with axes on immortal, or even on emperor though I don't have much experience on that difficulty level. Dogs are way too strong and even his archers are very hard to kill. Especially since we are creative, peaceful co-existence would be an option (we wouldn't lose culture wars over border tiles). Another way would be a catapult war, as those tend to have a 100% success rate when pulled off skillfully.

 

[KIG]

Question, what should I do with the worker once it's done farming? Chop a forest into the settler, prechop for later use, farm something?

 

[sampsa]

Question, what should I do with the worker once it's done farming? Chop a forest into the settler, prechop for later use, farm something?

IMO, chop into a 2nd worker. Settler whip should be done earlier or simultaneously, unless I'm mistaken.

Farming a floodplain is only +1 and takes 7T. Chopping generates 20 and it takes 4T to move into a forest and chop (i.e. chopping creates 5 per turn), thus it creates more, faster, which is what an efficient early game should aim for.

 

[ArchGhost]

I think with these tiles settler whips are great. Without mines, chops and whips it's hard to leverage IMP settlers. Agree that CRE makes delaying BW more attractive, because 45 libraries are possible to get up in a reasonable time without whips/chops.

Not that I play either Deity or HoF games, but in my experience, BW for either chops or whips is exactly why Mining civs often have stronger starts with less delay getting there for at least whips. I am curious about this fast Currency idea cseanny talks about since I personally play expand heavy all the time though. I get that CRE/IMP mitigates delaying BW, but it also makes it even stronger, no? Unless you hit the economic wall too fast or something.

I'd marked it for later because I figured it wasn't that strong early due to overlap and not having that much food on its own. Again, speaks to my prioritisation more than anything

(Early) overlap is a good thing. Sharing resources between cities, as well as other tiles (such as interior cottages or hills) when the other cities don't need them strengthens both overall, and city cores can function just fine with lots of overlapping. The gold/cow spot can do a little of both (sharing Rice and cottages). You should still have time to secure copper with a decent 2nd settler speed if AH doesn't pan out for barb defense units.

Another thing is this secures land in SB's direction (and away from the coast), helping you create a backline to fill later such as the stuff to the South along the river/Deer/Sheep etc., especially with the desert helping deter him further from walking around you (won't really be a problem on Prince, but for moving forward). As the AIs expand faster on higher diff they'll try for the same resource locations you might want yourself, so grabbing what you can between the two of you can be a good idea when you can.

A caveat of this is you might not want to settle right up against a CRE leader's borders when doing this or a strong wonder-spammer's capitol -- generally not a great idea to be within their 3rd rings if you happen to not be CRE yourself, creating border tensions and even may threaten your city culturally.

Question, what should I do with the worker once it's done farming? Chop a forest into the settler, prechop for later use, farm something?

chop I'd say. you'll grow to 4 before it comes in (if you're going for the 2-pop whip Settler, though I think it'll be "too much" for a 2pop whip, the max threshold for IMP is 54/100 settler) or it will help with a size 3 slow build either way.

 

[lymond]

^Exactamundo (edit..archghost ninj'd me..the arrow meant for Sampsa above)...look to time that settler whip with a chop and you will have a very fast second worker. Pretty much once the special food resources are improved you will focus on chopping.

If horses are found, then I'd be doing HAs...and well, chariots could work early enough on Bull. Catch him quick with no archers or one with enough, you are fine...and chariots love to eat Dog for breakfast.

Honestly, I don't emphasize war early on in most shadow games, mainly focusing on empire management. But I don't like Bull's proximity here..and he is otherwise pretty useless except for trade routes (which are important). Oh..and his cap is really very nice...much nicer if you owned it . We know there is at least one other AI on this continent, so it's not like you will be alone.