Entire Game is a bug

[Neomega]

I mentioned this over at Apolyton, and I'll mention it here. It's funny how Take-Two Interactive (TTWO) stock dropped $0.32 today. 1.59%. This only one day after CIV IV is released. http://quotes.nasdaq.com/quote.dll?...symbol=&symbol=&symbol=&symbol=&selected=TTWO Shouldn't that say something?

The whole market dropped today.

to andrewlt:

Please, my attacks have not been ad hominem. People are saying this game is terrible, I want them to back it up. It's not, it's a sweet product, and when you get it running , you'll see what I mean. If Rich put his "QA company owning experience" as being some kind of expert testament that Take2 is a terrible publisher, and they need to run thier business differently, and answer phones for a problem that is not going to get fixed any faster if they talk to Rich or not... that's not ad hominem. And believe me, I am not going to let peopel throw in all sorts of insults and flames, and let them get away with it.
f you read my response, if they seem a little personal, peopel have been saying some really ugly things about me first, I am merely defending myself.

Firaxis and Take2 are not going anywhere but up with this product. At the highest graphics settings, it looks really good, and runs nearly flawlessly on my machine, with a few graphical glitches every now and then. It is to be expected of modern games,if you do not have the sweetest gaming rig, that there wil be glitches. It is not "unacceptable" that things may not run perfectly on your machine. It is not even unacceptable that Firaxis may have needed to release a fix already for a small percentage of people.

There are those with ATI cards who are acting like a travesty has occured, and there are those with ATI cards who are thanking Firaxis tonight for a patch in 30 hours. Not bad at all.

So One person says "this game is a bug" and that it is "unacceptable", the other says the game is fun. Get it? I have already seen people say "oh the editor sucks! I can't .... bleh bleh bleh." After 2 days, it is really dumb to be rushing to any kind of judgements, and then posting what is owed to you by the people who you bought the game from.

 

[CommanderSpock]

So One person says "this game is a bug" and that it is "unacceptable", the other says the game is fun. Get it? I have already seen people say "oh the editor sucks! I can't .... bleh bleh bleh." After 2 days, it is really dumb to be rushing to any kind of judgements, and then posting what is owed to you by the people who you bought the game from.

*sigh* Ignorance is bliss isn't it. I find it truely amusing and fascinating (not to use the cliche) that the people who have their game running properly continue to state innacurate facts and continue to misquote and name call those that do not have their game running properly. If you take stating facts as pure whining, then may I point out you, that you are reacting with emotion instead of countering facts with facts. I'll just list some facts here purely for the enjoyment of Rich and those that understand the facts already.

1. The game has bugs.
2. The game does not run properly on many computers and wont run at all on many others. (alot more than one)
3. The game was rushed to be finished a month before it was planned.
4. Firaxis and take2 screwed up big time.

Think about this. Lets suppose I buy a new car and the car breaks down on every corner. Or suppose the AC or radio doesn't work etc. etc. We would call it a lemon. Would you be happy with that purchase? Let's use some of the logic I've seen on the board to solve this problem:

1. My car works fine..shut up and stop whining.
2. It's expected to have a few bugs. So what if your car breaks down and leaves you stranded. It's still a great vehicle.
3. It's your fault the car doesn't run properly. Don't you know how to change the oil? I changed my oil and its running fine now...you must suck.

That would be incredibly stupid. Bottom line..when you purchase something you expect it to be of quality..not a lemon. Civ IV so far for many people is a lemon.

Everything about this game release stinks. Yes it is a beautiful game on the computers that can run it. But it's supposedly designed to run on systems that meet the minimum requirements and up. The Fact is...this game does not. Firaxis and take2 should have gotten their facts straight about what type of system the game could run on before releasing the title. Not only that they should have tested it properly..especially on ATI cards.

Final Word:

You can choose to ignore the facts based on your elated emotion that the game runs on your system. That does not change the fact or reality that this game does not run on everyone else's systems. Nor will your emotions make it magically run on those systems. You cannot change these universal facts...although you can waste precious playing time and try.

So please be gracious about it....go enjoy the game running so beautifully on your system. Because really you're not helping us solve the problem any quicker. Rather you're skewing the facts based your your illogical emotions and deductions.

 

[Willem]

1. The game has bugs.

So what else is new? I haven't bought a game in many, many years that didn't require some sort of patch to fix unforseen problems. It's certainly nothing unique to Firaxis.

2. The game does not run properly on many computers and wont run at all on many others. (alot more than one)

Chances are that they're trying to run it on systems that are obsolete or on the verge of being so.

But it's supposedly designed to run on systems that meet the minimum requirements and up. The Fact is...this game does not.

No one said that it would run well on bottom end systems. There's been more than one post of people being able to run the game, marginally, on below spec systems.

Not only that they should have tested it properly..especially on ATI cards.

And it was. Several of the playtesters have mentioned that they ran the game with no problems on ATI cards. This was a totally unforeseen problem that sometimes happens when dealing with software.

That does not change the fact or reality that this game does not run on everyone else's systems.

The bottom line for those people is that they may have to consider whether it's time to upgrade their systems. Computer technology is advancing and like it or not, the user has to advance with it. Or be satisfied with running old applications. The vast majority of problems being encountered seems to be from people with marginal machines. At least now that the ATI issue has been fixed.

 

[doronron]

It seems most of the people having trouble now are the ones that ignored the HW TnL requirements. You can't exactly claim that to be a bug...

 

[oldStatesman]

It seems most of the people having trouble now are the ones that ignored the HW TnL requirements. You can't exactly claim that to be a bug...

Wrong.

The Radeon 7500 for example was listed as the minimum spec (On the box, at srtest.com, and on the Friaxis site.) It will not run the game properly. We did not ignore the requirements - the requirements were incorrectly stated.

It seems T&L is not the only requirement for the card...it may have to do with Shading also. The 7500 does not support shading...though it does support T&L.

And a lot of folks with mid range cards are having issues with the movies and choppiness. Not to mention reports of memory leaks by many many users.

The bugs are there - to poopoo them and those reporting them is to do everyone a disservice. Instead, let people report them and quit bashing them for doing it - they can only be fixed if they are reported.

 

[Willem]

The Radeon 7500 for example was listed as the minimum spec (On the box, at srtest.com, and on the Friaxis site.)

Key word there, minimum. Some people have managed to get the game working by adjusting their AGP settings, though it runs slowly by doing so. You can't expect the game to fly on a card listed as the minimum.

 

[zbadger13]

Well, I'm sure irritated! Specs:
Pent4 2.8 GHz
nVidia GeForce 5600 128mb, new 8185 drivers
DirectX 9.0c
Got to the point of choosing tribe, world, etc. After listening to a somewhat choppy narrative of the begining of the world (which I can not fast click forward through) I wind up at a view of a partial world with black pixels in it and space alternating with a sort of brown universe in a window. That's it. End. No going forward, back, no ctl alt del, nothing.
A reward of a Daimler Ferret (a little tank) ride to whoever can solve this!

 

[doronron]

The bugs are there - to poopoo them and those reporting them is to do everyone a disservice. Instead, let people report them and quit bashing them for doing it - they can only be fixed if they are reported.

So it's alright to bash the designers, reviewers, and customers who run with no apparent problems? That's what all of these threads really are doing.

Sure, submit legitimate concerns in a reasonable and adult manner, but to act like a child and lash out at others who weren't the cause of your problems in the first place is completely useless. That's why this board has divided. We've got jackholes registering just so they can flame everyone because they can't play a video game. Boo Hoo.

 

[oldStatesman]

Key word there, minimum. Some people have managed to get the game working by adjusting their AGP settings, though it runs slowly by doing so. You can't expect the game to fly on a card listed as the minimum.

But it won't run correctly - it gets the Cheshire Cat bug. Minumum specs should run the game correctly - albeit slowly.

 

[CommanderSpock]

So it's alright to bash the designers, reviewers, and customers who run with no apparent problems?

Rofl...man...if stating the fact the game doesn't run is bashing..forgive me. Read and re-read my former post please. I never knew it was a crime to expect a quality product these days. And Rich never did any namecalling. But alot of you seem to do so quite easily.

The game does not run as advertised on many systems. If this fact bothers you ...again go play your game. If you want to take it as bashing, again.....be happy and go play your game. And yes IT IS alright to bash something that doesnt work. It's called capitalism. It's called a free market economy. If it doesn't work other people won't buy it. That's the way it's suppposed to work. You should know that having played CIV IV. Give us a break please.....

 

[doronron]

Stating the fact is fine, attacking people who aren't having the same problems as you is another matter. All of these threads, quite simply, revolve around guys saying "this game sucks!", with others replying, "no it doesn't, wait till you can get it to work". And the second group invariably gets attacked. Just as you have just done.

 

[oldStatesman]

So it's alright to bash the designers, reviewers, and customers who run with no apparent problems? That's what all of these threads really are doing.

Sure, submit legitimate concerns in a reasonable and adult manner, but to act like a child and lash out at others who weren't the cause of your problems in the first place is completely useless. That's why this board has divided. We've got jackholes registering just so they can flame everyone because they can't play a video game. Boo Hoo.

And lumping all who have problems into that category is just as inflammatory and immature.

Face it - the problems are real, they exist and they need to be addressed. I am impressed on how fast Firaxis has addressed the inet rendering issue. I have not dissed the developers or the reviewers.

The game does seem rushed out - and in fact it was pushed up 3 weeks or so to meet the publishers needs. IMHO It does have a not quite finished feel to it...

Is it a bad game? No. Does it have some issues? Yes.

I agree the immature posters on both sides need to chill...it seems just as many new posters have registered just to flame those with complaints - it goes both ways.

 

[Zombieboy]

Although I've been a lurker on these boards for some time, I just signed up today to see if I couldn't fix the problems I'm having with Civ. Although I'm trying to keep a "cool head" and not judge the game itself based on the issues I'm having, it's frankly getting tough not to. To those who can run it and enjoy it, all the more power to you, but for those of us who HAVE the requirements (I have above the requirements) and are having serious issues with the game, it's incredibly frustrating. Yes, you can't expect a PC game to be PERFECT when it first comes out. What you should be able to expect, however, is a game to run properly when you actually meet or exceed the requirements.

 

[CustodianV131]

I downloaded the Omega driver and it did help with the sound stuttering. It didn't completely solve the problem, but it most certainly helped it. Instead of the stuttering happening every 1-2 seconds, it's more like every 10-15 seconds. I've only checked the opening animations and the lead-in. I haven't tried it on the wonders yet. Thanks for the info.

This guy had the same problem:

I notice some "hicks" or little stutters in my background music...

The sound problems where gone after I've canceled hardware acceleration for the sounds in directX

Maybe this can help you?

You can find the whole tread here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134061

 

[Neomega]

So please be gracious about it....go enjoy the game running so beautifully on your system. Because really you're not helping us solve the problem any quicker. Rather you're skewing the facts based your your illogical emotions and deductions.

I don't have to be gracious with people who are acting like their rights are being violated because the game did not work when they first got it. There are plenty of people, for whom the game did not seem to work, who got the answers and fix they needed, and it ran, all with out coming ot these boards and calling Firaxis and Take2 horrible companies and names, and claiming to have expertise in the industry, and how it is the end of Take2, blah blah blah.

There are still those having problems right now, and for them, I empathize. But I do not empathize for those writing that "wow Take2 really screwed it up"... no every pc game has problems. and "wow Take2 doesn't care about my issues", no Firaxis and Take2 does care. But if their phone says "call again in 24 hours", it's really useless to call back in 20 minutes to hear the message again, and then get angry about it.

If your card met the minimum... that does not mean much.... it means you should expect MAJOR problems. When purchasing a PC game, and you only meet the minimum, you better be prepared for the fact that the game is not going to run well. This is not new, this is the way it is, and has been for years. It sucks, but the civ IV engine is going to be around for 5 years, and in 5 years, it will run flawlessy on most people's computers, just like Civ III does now.

I have no problem with people reporting thier bugs, I don't even mind people expressing disappointment the game is not workng well, or worse, not at all. What I do not like to see is people acting like it's a tragedy, or they payed money, and they are owed a custom configuration by the people at Take2.

Why can't people ask for help graciously, instead of like "I payed $55 for this, and it doesn't WORK!!! OMG take2 and Firaxis are CON ARTISTS. And they won;t answer their phones!!! They better take care of this or I am taking my business elsewhere!!!" It's just stupid, and a mindset I hate to see displayed.


BTW, the game does not work flawlessly on my system, as I have stated before, but it runs well, and recovers from annoying glitches, sometimes without even having to restart the game. It has yet to crash on me, allthough it felt like it because it did freeze for more than 2 minutes a couple of times, but it recovered. The whole game however, is not "a bug". The game was obviously written and playtested well.

On my 2800+ with 512 RAM, the loading the game takes about 5 minutes, and unit movements each take about 2-3 seconds. The game is slightly laggy. So if your game seems to be frozen, it may just be that it is running laggy.... especially if your computer is over 2 years old.

 

[Willem]

But it won't run correctly - it gets the Cheshire Cat bug. Minumum specs should run the game correctly - albeit slowly.

I've read a number of posts now by people that were still able to play the game until the end even with these graphic glitches. You're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that the graphics aren't important to gameplay yet you complain when they aren't appearing correctly. Several people have been able to get past these graphical anomalies and still enjoy the game, so obviously the game does run on a bottom end machine. Some people have even been able to get the graphics working properly at the expense of game speed.

And where is the rule that says slow gameplay is the only thing to be expected from a low end system? You can expect all sorts of issues, especially when dealing with 3D platforms.

 

[Rince]

You people should look at the poll asking whether to buy the game or not. 95% currently state that the game is great and worth the money.

Rince

 

[doronron]

And lumping all who have problems into that category is just as inflammatory and immature.

Face it - the problems are real, they exist and they need to be addressed. I am impressed on how fast Firaxis has addressed the inet rendering issue. I have not dissed the developers or the reviewers.

The game does seem rushed out - and in fact it was pushed up 3 weeks or so to meet the publishers needs. IMHO It does have a not quite finished feel to it...

Is it a bad game? No. Does it have some issues? Yes.

I agree the immature posters on both sides need to chill...it seems just as many new posters have registered just to flame those with complaints - it goes both ways.

...And what's the first post most complaints start with? They start with "Civ IV is a horrible game! Firaxis stole my money! Take2 needs to be sued. Boycott! Boycott! Anyone who disagrees with me is a troll!" Just look at the title of this thread!

Hardly sounds level-headed to me. Hardly sounds like these guys are looking for a solution. They're just here to complain.

Most complainers come in with the thought that NO beta testing was done (which is a disservice to both Firaxis and our fellow forumites). Most complainers automatically assume the problem is entirely the fault of the same company and forumites. They do not, I repeat, DO NOT, take into account how they use and maintain their own machines. And what was the biggest problem? What are the remaining problems? Ones involving software conflicts the users themselves could have resolved beforehand if they'd simply paid attention to the game's specs and the operation of their own machines.

 

[Double Blade]

I never buy a game without looking at the required specs on the box. As I stated earlier, my system meets or exceeds all recommended specs that are posted right there on the box. Should I expect the game to run flawlessly? Yes. Sure, there are some people going to extremes on both sides of the debate. I don't expect the game to be entirely bug free. I can live with a few exploits here and there in the game that was just looked over. But live with the laggy game play and the crashing system? I don't think so. Sure the game is going to be great once they get it patched. I've had fun playing it what time I have been able to play. My arguement is that it shouldn't need such extensive patching when the game is already in stores! Commander Spock made a good point earlier with the car analogy. What if you bought a new car right off the truck. The thing is, not all of these cars have a transmission. You get one that does not. You paid the same amount of money as those who got one of the cars that were ok. Then, those who got the good cars told not to be mad and call you a whiner or a moron because the manufacturer will come out with a transmission for your car in time. That's what we're getting in these forums.

Your copy works. Good for you. Go enjoy it. Our copy does not because it's bugged. Accept it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A better analogy might be a drug, (or pharmaceutical) those things go through decades of testing before being released to the general public where they make some people die. Just because it is FDA approved doesn't mean it will be safe, it means they believe it will be safe to a certain level of evidence (that being much more than computer games because those don't kill people) The first public release of ANYTHING is always a test. Using the car example, they don't know how well new hybrid cars will work for how long because they've only been in largescale production for a few years. Sometimes massive numbers are the only way to fully test something, again computer games being released less tested because they aren't as essential/dangerous as drugs or cars.

Perhaps software companies need to start having [bug-free tested rankings] showing how well tested a product is based on some standard of testing done before release (once patches come out a product might even move up in those rankings.)