Eschatology

[happy_Alex]

Sorry I wrote all this as response to another thread and didn't want to delete it.

'Hell' as you understand it a place of eternal torture, fire, brimstone etc etc,is not in Christian eschatology, though I don't know about the others. The scripture ultimately speaks of a 'second death', the implication being self imposed execution through turning away from God.

Neither is 'heaven' in the traditional sense of harps, clouds and angels part of this vision, thought the 'pearly gates' may be related to the vision of New Jerusalem. Revelation speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, but without the sin, pain and other things that spoil this world, in particular death. Humans will be their of their own choice, through their love and recognition of god, thus squarign the circle of free-will created by the fall of man.

This will all happen on judgement day, the point when men will finally rebel against Gods authority and Jesus wil return. The second coming, or the 'rapture' as some evangelicals like to refer to it. After the second coming follows the resurection of the dead, when Jesus will separate the 'sheep' from the 'goats'. The analagy is significant because sheep follow but goats are stubborn.

Up to this point, those who have died are dead, and not waiting in heaven or hell, e.g. St Peter will resurect at the same point as you or I. Quite where everyone will fit is another question, but I'm told everyone on the planet could fit on the Isle of White, if they all squashed up.

CS Lewis pictures hell as a place as 'grey city' of endless terraced streets which people can leave at any time by getting on a bus. However, people are prevented from leaving by their own stuborness and hang-ups. The more bitter they are, the further they move from the bus station. Napoleon is like, miles away.

People send themselves to 'hell' through a lifetime of rejection of God.

 

[Birdjaguar]

There are several christians her ewho will explain the multiple views on the second coming and rapture. Everyone is not in agreement on the details. Your CS Lewis reference:

CS Lewis pictures hell as a place as 'grey city' of endless terraced streets which people can leave at any time by getting on a bus. However, people are prevented from leaving by their own stuborness and hang-ups.

Cgannon is our resident expert on CS Lewis, I hope he will chime in. But in any case your post makes him appear to be unorthodox and almost Origen-ish in nature: Souls move further or closer to god by their actions and everyone can (will) be saved in the end.

The more bitter they are, the further they move from the bus station. Napoleon is like, miles away.

English must be a second language for you and you confused miles and feet. Clearly you meant to say: "Napoleon is like, a few feet away." Your error is forgiven, just don't make it again.

 

[happy_Alex]

English must be a second language for you and you confused miles and feet. Clearly you meant to say: "Napoleon is like, a few feet away." Your error is forgiven, just don't make it again.

Er no why do you say that??

In the book I'm refering to, The Great Divorce, Napoleon lives in a house miles from the bus station, endlessly blaming his generals for his failure at Waterloo.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Er no why do you say that??
In the book I'm refering to, The Great Divorce, Napoleon lives in a house miles from the bus station, endlessly blaming his generals for his failure at Waterloo.

A weak attempt at humor for your putting Napoleon far from heaven. and a bit of a troll for certain English posters.

 

[happy_Alex]

Im simply refering to whats in the book. Im not trolling, Napoleon DID loose the battle of waterloo.

 

[punkbass2000]

I once had it argued to me that people who even believe that they are quite happy and fulfilled (and ostensibly are as well) are still, in fact, in hell and being deluded or some such because they were rejecting god. 'Twas an interesting argument.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Im simply refering to whats in the book. Im not trolling, Napoleon DID loose the battle of waterloo.

I was trolling. The Prussians won Waterloo. The French lost it.

 

[Yom]

I wouldn't say Napoleon is miles away. He certainly isn't there yet, but he did believe in God. CurtSibling would be on the other side of the earth, though.

 

[Quasar1011]

'Hell' as you understand it a place of eternal torture, fire, brimstone etc etc,is not in Christian eschatology, though I don't know about the others. The scripture ultimately speaks of a 'second death', the implication being self imposed execution through turning away from God.

Hell (also known by its Greek counterpart, Hades) is temporary, so you are correct.

Revelation 20:13-14
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

However, the Lake of Fire, which most people erroneously refer to as Hell, is a place of eternal punishment:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This will all happen on judgement day, the point when men will finally rebel against Gods authority and Jesus wil return. The second coming, or the 'rapture' as some evangelicals like to refer to it. After the second coming follows the resurection of the dead, when Jesus will separate the 'sheep' from the 'goats'. The analagy is significant because sheep follow but goats are stubborn.

Men are already rebelling against God's authority! The Second Coming of Christ, is not related to the resurrection of the wicked at all. Rather, the Rapture is actually 2 events so close in time that only God can separate them: the resurrection of the righteous, and the translation of the saints. The separation of the sheep from the goats takes place on Earth, some 7+ years after the Rapture.

Up to this point, those who have died are dead, and not waiting in heaven or hell, e.g. St Peter will resurect at the same point as you or I. Quite where everyone will fit is another question, but I'm told everyone on the planet could fit on the Isle of White, if they all squashed up.

I agree that the righteous dead are not in Heaven, in spirit bodies, at this time. They are, however, in Paradise, which is a sort of "waiting room" for Heaven. Don't forget this passage of Scripture about the thief on the cross:

Luke 23:42-43
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[happy_Alex]

Revelation 20:13-14
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

However, the Lake of Fire, which most people erroneously refer to as Hell, is a place of eternal punishment:

If the lake of fire is 'the second death' then it is a terminal event. Death implies a finality, a nihiliation. I know the devil will be punished for ever and ever, but I'm almost tempted to think he deserves it...

Luke 23:42-43
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Well quoted. But I don't believe Jesus is implying a 'waiting room' or what soem catholics refer to as pergutory (spelling??).

If you die, and then are resurected at the end of tim, then it will be the same day for that person. So the theif dies the same day as christ, but when he is resurected it is for him, the same day

 

[Plexus]

CS Lewis pictures hell as a place as 'grey city' of endless terraced streets which people can leave at any time by getting on a bus. However, people are prevented from leaving by their own stuborness and hang-ups. The more bitter they are, the further they move from the bus station. Napoleon is like, miles away.

I think that you're taking The Great Divorce far too literally:

The second thing is this. I beg readers to remember that this is a fantasy. It has of course - or I intended it to have - a moral. But the transmortal conditions are solely an imaginative supposal: they are not even a guess or a speculation at what may actually await us. The last thing I wish is to arouse factual curiosity about the details of the after-world.

Speculation on the nature of Heaven or that of Hell is all rather pointless if you ask me.