Esus+ Module

[Goodwill]

I was just thinking about two things at once: 1) I hate the typical method where spies, when caught, result in automatic immediate DoW. Seems excessive as spies (doing very bad things like poisoning) are caught from time to time in the real world and never result in immediate war declaration. 2) I don't think it should be easy, but there should be some possibility (even for non-Emperyan and even for the AI) to distinguish uncorrupted Bannor (following Order) from corrupted Bannor (following Order and CoE).

So putting the two thoughts together: what if spy discovery resulted in "Esus follower revealed" and a diplomatic penalty. The diplo penalty might be the normal "follows-other-religion" penalty plus penalty (if any) that would be given for being evil (so no sweat if Tebryn finds out you are CoE, but very problematic for those "good" allies).

I haven't played the mod you've probably experienced this in, but I have played a lot of standard Beyond the Sword. In BTS, when a spy is discovered, there's a chance that the nationality is uncovered as well. Most of the time it just says a spy was caught (and there's no diplomatic penalty or war). There's a....maybe 20% or so chance that the spy's nationality is identified - in which case it's just like you're describing - a diplomatic penalty of -1 for each incident in which your spy was caught AND identified. Your spy was caught making trouble or something like that. That's actually the design I was picturing, and not a triggered war based on that incident alone.

 

[Pazyryk]

Oops... haven't played BtS in so long, and maybe I forgot how Orbis ratcatchers work. I may have been thinking about the "steal" abilities of Esus recon units.

It would be nice if the diplo penalty had some context dependence, though. Getting caught out as an Esus follower by your goody-two-shoes allies should be pretty bad. -1 diplo is pretty minor in this situation if you are already at friendly level.

 

[Sephi]

Can't you just give this ability to Esus recon units? I never liked the extra "spy" units (e.g., in Orbis) when it fits perfectly to give these mission to scouts, assassins, shadows, etc.

The AI would never understand that. Of course assasins and shadows could also have access to one or two abilities.

 

[Ash_Highwind]

The AI would never understand that. Of course assasins and shadows could also have access to one or two abilities.

Is it possible to give those spy units only to the AI, with a limit number (maybe 6) an less produktion cost?
and give those abilitys to the recon line for the human player?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

one thing I dislike about blocking good spells is that if you are AV you can use all the good spells you want, yet Esus ( which is "less evil" than AV ) can't

I'd rather see Esus civs unable to use ALL other heroes ( bambur, Valin, etc. ) , priests and special civics than block spells, which seems really weird.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

with the new Esus, Hawks should definitely lose the ability to see invisible units, and only be allowed to see invisible animals. it's horribly overpowered, and losing invisibility permanently due to it is not fun

the fact that hawks are now very easy to use due to automation makes it even worse... imho seeing invisible should be reserved to Empy and units with perfect sight.

 

[Neomega]

I really like the idea of empy hawks/units being only ones that can see invisible. my into the mist got ruined in an MP game by one hawk.. It would also be cool because then Esus and Empy would be the only two religions which would make the unit religions matter.

I definitely have made four or five hawks just to get one esus hawk, (and of course I have to give that one a unique name) it would be cool to have that little side quest for someone playing empy.

Still, shadow invisibility really sucks, because once it is gone, it's gone.

 

[Sephi]

Still, shadow invisibility really sucks, because once it is gone, it's gone.

That definetly needs a change. How do Shadows loose invisibility permanently?

 

[Neomega]

That definetly needs a change. How do Shadows loose invisibility permanently?

The reveal spell, I think. Unlike stealth, you can't recast invisible next turn. Shadows are born invisible, but reveal removes the promotion. Some units can see invisible, and in that case the invisibility is not removed, but the unit can see the shadow if the shadow is in it's LoS.
Into the mist only gives the stealth version of invisible, not stealth itself, so once a hawk reveals the invisible, there is no way to cast it to get it back.

 

[Sephi]

ok, added a Esus Miracle that allows Shadows to get their invisibility back for a gold cost.

 

[Sephi]

I have tied the Sabotage Missions now to a Promotion rather a unit. So if you upgrade the Esus Enforcer to an assasin or Shadowrider he can still use the missions.

 

[Pohlmann]

agnostic civs should be able to research deception then

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

ok, added a Esus Miracle that allows Shadows to get their invisibility back for a gold cost.

great! what about hawks being able to see invisible and Sidar's worldspell giving stealth instead of invisibility? those could be tweaked as well

 

[Sephi]

1 there has to be a counter to invisible units
2 deception is blocked for agnostic civs because they do not gain anything from it. Access to the undercouncil is given by way of the wicked.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

actually, I think countering invisible units should be limited to Empyrean. after all, switching to empy for a short while to build a couple vicars doesn't seem like a crazy requirement, and Empyrean is supposed to be the counter to Esus. hawks are too readily available

 

[Sephi]

agnostic leaders can't build vicars

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

then they should get a couple units with Perfect Sight

alternatively, it would be good to only grant hawks the ability to see invisible at a much later tech than Hunting. possibly another lategame recon tech could enlarge the radius in which hawks can use their special recon ability.

 

[Sephi]

it's annoying as hell if you have invisible barbs early (mistforms or whatever they are called) and you can't do a thing about it.

maybe the prereqs of Perfect Sight should be changed, dunno

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's quite possible indeed. imho both Perfect Sight and Guardsman should be easier to get, since sometimes you REALLY NEED them and it shouldn't be so hard ( i.e. your only hope against assassins should NOT be royal guards, and your only hope against invisible should NOT be hawks )

 

[Deon]

So, is it solved about "good mana" or still in discussion?

Let me add my 5 cents: Ashen Veil, the most evil religion, can easily use any manas, and why not Esus?


But the main question is about it being "right" or not. Mana nodes are just channels to other planes of specific mana, why can't they be used by Esus followers?