Ethics In Mods

[darkonion]

Hello. I feel (and am glad to finally say) that ethics in the creation of mods really does hold us (the gamers) and them (the modders) back from the true potential that or games may become. This thread is created under the assumption that everyone will have an opinion. Please do not hold back. Whether you believe that file sharing is wrong or that putting nudity in games is alright, here's your chance to voice your mind, to challenge the beliefs of others, and forge new and unique ideals and morals...

 

[cairo140]

Could you please clarify on your point? I'm not following what you're trying to say. Are you talking about ethics in terms of not including Hitler and WWII and stuff like that?

 

[darkonion]

in the use of "stolen" objects such as music, graphics, etc.

EDIT: i edited the opener... read it...

 

[Kael]

What any modder does is up to them, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone here what is right or wrong. But here is my personal take on it.

1. Anyone elses work you use should be credited and thanked for providing it, even if you are using it without there permission.

2. Complete works of someone else that isn't provided free shouldn't be used without the authors permission. But small pieces are okay. This is a real fuzzy line, and like I said its a personal line in the sand for me.

[tab]a. Music- I would use a 10 second clip from someones song, but I wouldnt use a full song unless the author is providing it for free download. I justify that if the players could go download it themselves for free and legally its okay if they get it with my mod. My version of "fair use" though I know it doesnt comply with the legal definition.

[tab]b. Art- Again, pictures posted for free on the internet I include just like the music example above.

[tab]c. Code- as above, I wouldn't include someone's entire mod without getting that guys permission. I want to include all of TheLopez's mercenary mod in FfH, but I wouldn't do it without his permission. But there are TONS of little pieces here and there that I have stolen from a lot fo the code I have studied form the other folks here. I wouldn't ask TGA's permission to use an algorithym he has in one of his mods and I dont expect that anyone who finds an interesting way to do something out of my mod would ask my permission.

3. You shouldn't use anything of anyones elses without their permission if you are making money on it.

4. If a works author asks you to remove it, you do. No questions.

Whelp, thats my own warped ethics line. I fully expect that other will draw their line in different places, and they aren't wrong to do so. There is no one correct ethical line, there is one correct legal line and I am aware that I am not on it. I try to be as close as I can while still being able to produce mods in the tradition of those great modmakers before me.

 

[epu]

Um, so while just sketching out a potential new mod, I explicitly asked the author of a contributing map if he/she would consider releasing the file under a specific creative commons license.

This came about because the wizard for making a new installer asked me what license text to show.

Then, I got to thinking; the SDK headers and cpp files I've looked at don't have any specific license terms in them. There isn't a license distributed with them, but the download text says we can individually do whatever we want.

I think that includes trading and redistributing the binary output, but it doesn't say anything about that or the modified source code (whether it's XML or cpp/h or .py or whatever).

I think that Firaxis intends that we hold a reasonable fair use to hack on the software and the art that we have paid for.

I think we should give similar freedoms to other modders, but I expect attribution; that is to say, if someone contributes a map, but then fans hack more on it and release modded versions based on it, that should be ok.

But just to be sure, it'd be nice to have the legal-ese to fall back on.

 

[epu]

http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses
explains a few CC licenses; I'm not saying that authors have to use these, I'm just considering them because they seem to apply well to art files, and explain user rights pretty well.

You probably shouldn't use anything without permission, unless there are convincing fair use rights in your country that allow you to do this (I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that there is plenty of grey area around this. Search www.eff.org for 'fan fiction' for example).

Also, just because someone hasn't posted their copyright on files doesn't mean those files aren't protected. Myself, I want to explicitly see the authors give me rights to use files.

I'm a little bummed though, because thinking through all this means I may have to stop working on any Dune related stuff if it's completely illegal to create a game mod based on it. I think there has to be some kind of fan fiction protection, but I don't know for sure.

 

[darkonion]

http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses
explains a few CC licenses; I'm not saying that authors have to use these, I'm just considering them because they seem to apply well to art files, and explain user rights pretty well.

You probably shouldn't use anything without permission, unless there are convincing fair use rights in your country that allow you to do this (I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that there is plenty of grey area around this. Search www.eff.org for 'fan fiction' for example).

Also, just because someone hasn't posted their copyright on files doesn't mean those files aren't protected. Myself, I want to explicitly see the authors give me rights to use files.

I'm a little bummed though, because thinking through all this means I may have to stop working on any Dune related stuff if it's completely illegal to create a game mod based on it. I think there has to be some kind of fan fiction protection, but I don't know for sure.

thats where kael's "fuzzy line" comes into play... i believe that licences arent there to give rules and stuff like that... they just make u look legit... thats just me though...

 

[Thasis]

For putting songs into your game, as long as your not charging for the game it should be fine. People could say "Well you're giving the people a free song". Well as far as I know File Sharing isn't completly against the law (Limewire, Kazza, etc). It's practically the same thing.

As for taking somebodies mod and just suddenly shoving it completly into your game... I'd say if your doing a compliation mod (of all the best from the forums or whatever), then it might be justifiable. If not, I'd suggest atleast giving them credit, if not directly asking premission. It usualy isn't a problem as long as you give them credit anywayz.

 

[Rabbit_Alex]

I suggest everyone reads this to make sure they don't do anything illegal.
Fair Use on Wikipedia.

 

[Chamaedrys]

I suggest everyone reads this to make sure they don't do anything illegal.
Fair Use on Wikipedia.

Good advice! But like all the legal stuff it is a lot of text...

 

[darkonion]

I suggest everyone reads this to make sure they don't do anything illegal.
Fair Use on Wikipedia.

alex...this thread is for YOU to post what YOU feel is RIGHT and WRONG when it comes to topic of ETHICS and MORALS... NOT what is LEGALLY CORRECT... please re-post and share your ideas with us...

 

[Padmewan]

What, if anything, is the problem you are trying to address here, darkonion? I'm all for a philosophical debate about ethics, morals, and law, but unless you have some specific examples and cases, this is all, as Chamaedrys nicely points out, "a lot of text."

No intent to be rude, but I'm not sure what you're getting at?

 

[darkonion]

What, if anything, is the problem you are trying to address here, darkonion? I'm all for a philosophical debate about ethics, morals, and law, but unless you have some specific examples and cases, this is all, as Chamaedrys nicely points out, "a lot of text."

No intent to be rude, but I'm not sure what you're getting at?

(this is my first thread soooooo... be nice plz) Im just trying to get peoples opinions on this topic... i had run into an ethics contradiction when posting on a thread... i just want to know what YOU think...

examples are (as in my past incident) the use of artists music in a mod... i believe, as long as you give them credit, you can use it to its full extent (or in other words="completely")

I also want to hear your stories too... see what others say about them... and see if we can come to a reasonable agreement on the whole "morality" idea...

 

[Padmewan]

Unless you feel that morals/ethics allow or compel you to break the law (e.g. you are breaking a curfew to protest the government), I don't see why you so aggressively rejected Chamaedrys's suggestion that you start by looking at what the law tells you.

examples are (as in my past incident) the use of artists music in a mod... i believe, as long as you give them credit, you can use it to its full extent (or in other words="completely")

You can believe this, but as a legal matter, you'd probably be wrong, no matter what you or others "feel."

 

[Padmewan]

OK, let me back up from what I just posted, because obviously I'm being hypocritical.

Upon reflection I agree that what you decide to do may diverge from what is legally allowed, as just for full disclosure my current project draws heavily from what is certainly copyrighted material. Some of it I might claim "fair use," but a lot of it is just out-and-out "taken" from another source, to whit, SMAC.

Now I'm aware that at any minute the publishers of SMAC could throw an injunction on us and halt the project... which is one reason why we are intentionally building the mod to be a "remix" of the concepts but not actual content of SMAC. We are using SMAC images, etc. as placeholders until we get to that point, but I will be content to drop all of those if need be, and in fact I would see that as desirable as I would like the mod to have its own existence.

However, there is another team over at Apolyton which is working to faithfully reproduce SMAC, and while I think they would be in a much stickier situation if the publisher went after them, they have already contact said parties and are negotiating a resolution. Further, Civ4 and SMAC share a common studio (but not publisher), and both products have been modded (the former even offers support for so doing) in ways that indicate the publisher tolerates this activity, which would help a fair use argument.

Given that SMAC is for all intents and purposes a "dead" product, and that Firaxis repeatedly fends off efforts to pin them down on a SMAC II, there could be a "moral" for why letting the community create SMAC II on their own is OK. But I would not bet the farm on that effort's legality.

Every single mod here that is based on a franchise (e.g. Star Wars, Star Trek, Ringworld, whatever) is treading on thin legal ice, but the practical consequences of doing so are usually quite different than legal rights.

 

[epu]

It's a little wierd: there are parts of the EULA which try to prohibit redistribution of the software (in its entirety?) but, since mods reuse some of the source, I don't think they mean to prohibit modded xml assets and what have you.

You are expressly prohibited from transmitting the SOFTWARE or ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS electronically or otherwise over the Internet or through any other media or to any other party.

Then there's a non-profit clause, although you could negotiate a for-profit mod with them. I think that means, ethically, you can't ask for paypal donations or any thing resembling money or goods (a new processor, what have you).

You are expressly prohibited from selling or using any characters or other components of the game for any purpose. You are expressly prohibited from selling or otherwise profiting from any levels, add-on packs, sequels or other items based upon or related to the SOFTWARE and ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS or created by utilization of the SOFTWARE's level editor.

Then, ethically, you probably need to stick close to the following mod restrictions;

If you create levels, add-on packs, sequels or other items to the Software using the SOFTWARE's level editor, including the construction of new levels (collectively, the "Modifications"), you are subject to the following restrictions: (i) the SOFTWARE's level editor and associated development tools and documentation (collectively "SDK") are considered separate from the SOFTWARE in the sense that they are not guaranteed or supported by the OWNER. However, the OWNER retains all copyrights and intellectual rights to the SDK, as stated in this license.

I think that means you can make and redistribute patches to the sdk ethically, but probably not redistribute the full, patched sdk. I also think that means, you could copyright your modifications. Probably best if they were all in an external included file or implementation with your own copyrights asserted at the top.

(ii) your Modifications must require a full, registered copy of the Software to run; (iii) you may not distribute a Modification that contains an executable file which has been changed or modified in any way;

I think it's fine to protect the continued sales and success of the civ franchise, so ethically I'm ok with this.

(iv) your Modifications must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties;

This is probably the most fun paragraph to ethically interpret. I leave this as an excercise for the reader.

And just in case you missed it before, you can't sell your mod on a cdrom and charge a reasonable fee for the shipping and handling. This is dubious, but probably protects from the impression that something is for sale.

(v) your Modifications must be distributed solely for free. Neither you nor any other person or party may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for using them without a license from the OWNER. OWNER encourages noncommercial distribution of quality Modifications.

 

[epu]

All that having been said, I am in favor of
1. fan fiction
2. mod community re-authoring / mashing / mixing
3. giving credit where credit is due
4. allowing others to hack or likewise modify

I feel that non-commercial mods featuring fan's favorite characters and universes are akin to free exposure/advertising and PR for said chars/universes.

That being said, you have to make sure you're not smearing the good name of favorite stuff in the name of fan-dom.

 

[darkonion]

...You can believe this, but as a legal matter, you'd probably be wrong, no matter what you or others "feel."

yes... but we're not distributing our software at a price... if we were sellin it... then it would be completely illegal...