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Ethiopia vs Celts

Biologist

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The purpose of this thread is to continue a discussion that has largely usurped another thread (namely one devoted to which civs are "worst", i.e. least appealing to play in any given game).

Given identical settings and a similar opening gameplan, which faith-advantaged civ would you rather choose, Ethiopia or Celts, and why?

For the sake of discussion, the assumed settings are these:

Standard size map

Standard speed

All map conditions set to defaults

Pangaea or Continents map (i.e. no Archipelago or exotic map choices).

No mods that alter gameplay rules/units/abilities, etc.

If you want to consider settings other than these, please state this in your post so that everyone is on the same page.
 
I always play with ranging barbs for all civs.
Resource settings: I never use standard resource; in some games I use Legendary and in others Strategic Balance.

Hum, playing the Celts, you will start in forest (assuming that start biases weren't turned off); when combined with the 2 faith for free per turn from turn 0, I would be building a Scout first and have the pantheon on turn 5. In the mean time, I would hope my Warrior hits a upgrade ruin to upgrade to the UU to start faith-farming the barbs. Playing them, I might wait a bit longer before building a worker.

Playing Ethiopia, their religious advantage doesn't start until they build their UB, so I would build that first. In contrast to playing the Celts, I would hope my Warrior does NOT hit an upgrade ruin (I don't like regular spearman and prefer the normal upgrade to Sword). Playing them, I build the worker at my usual time.

I'm a fan of Tradition tree, and would pretty much use the same buy settlers for 500 gold + the 2 city NC. An aggressive AI is equally likely to interfere with plans; when that happens my early game combat moves to within my own lands for a bit with the normal use city bombard & archers to kill most enemy units, only using melee units to finish off where they can do so safely.

I find somewhat faster founding times with the Celts but faster time getting the enhancement with Ethiopia as the Celt UA starts degrading around the time the religion is founded from needing to improve the forest next to it. (This hurts the Celts more in Legendary than in strategic balance.) And I also get more faith post enhancement with Ethiopia.

This is going to give the religious edge to Ethiopia; that slightly slower to religion as them compared to Celts is still likely to be first to a religion unless either the Mayas or the Celts themselves were in the game. Meanwhile, the Celts are more likely to be a spot or two later enhancing the religion than Ethiopia.

Happiness: Celts have the happiness edge with their UB replacement for Opera House.

Culture: Ethiopia has a culture edge with their UB.

Units: Celts suffers from their UU being on a "bad" base unit. In fact the type of unit I wouldn't generally consider fighting the regular AI with but would only use against barbs. It upgrades to a unit that is acceptable against a small attack, but not suited for the big wave of AI units where you need to kill them via bombard from safe tiles. Half of the UU also goes away when upgraded to Pike. But the Ethiopian UU suffers from chances are really high that the UU attribute might as well not exist. (While I might be fighting within 4 tiles of my capital early on; I'm not going to be by then). This makes Ethiopian UU even worse than the Celts.

Initial wave of AI attack: Ethiopia is likely but not guaranteed to have a combat edge going my normal tradition start. Now if they end up conquering their nearest neighbor during it, their edge is lost against several civs for the rest of the game. (But not all, quite a few AIs go very wide). But if I've done so well dealing that wave to have conquered my nearest neighbor, I've effectively already won.

Overall, this appears to make Ethiopia the winner, at least with my preferred playing style, but neither civ belongs on the "worst civ overall" list.
 
I definately prefer the Celts.

They get an equal amount of faith but a faster pantheon, a decent UU and a brilliant UB.

Is it +3 or +4 happiness per UB? Anyway, it's amazing and happiness usually is pretty limited during that time period.

Pretty easy choice, imo.
 
If this is just a matter of preference, then it's a wash for me. Both are fun to play.

If I'm trying to win as convincingly as possible, I'll ICS with Ethiopia. Steles, Messenger of the Gods, Pagodas, runaway. Yes, all of that is strong in the hands of any civ even without the Steles, but the Stele gives consistent faith generation to support the Pagodas, which in turn support an unstoppable empire.

Still, the Celts are fun and dangerous in their own right. I agree that neither belong in the discussion for worst civ overall.
 
celts uu is far from bad. one of there promotions dose indeed carry over ( foreign lands bonus) and its this bonus that lets them go toe to toe wit swords all the way to muskets. giveing them the ability to wage war early without the need for iron ( yes we all know composite bows are the best)

tbh i think there both pretty even, Ethiopia's ub is quite good and built fast ( 7 turns usualy on standard). celts may get the upper hand tho when it comes to farming barbs with there uu for faith.

i see them this way, Ethiopia's only going to grow as wide as there neighbours allow, as to much expansion will negate there ua. while celts ua actually encourages them to go wide early on. so i guess i see them as one tall and one wide
 
I've obviously taken a stand on defending the Celts in the other thread. All I will add is that most of my games have large domination aspects to them (either full domination, or conquering most of the map and finishing with science if I don't feel like taking the last capitals). In that sense, Celts have a ton of advantages going for them compared to generic Dom civs (Russia/Germany/American/Ottoman).

The ability to reliably form and establish a religion with extremely little effort, the additional happiness from Ceilidh Hall, and picts upgraded into pikes all form a very strong domination package that very few other Civs possess. The pict upgrade line sucks, but it isn't a game-breaker, as shortly after lancers domination games become more of long-ranged bombardment through naval/air than ground troops.

For what it is worth I will say the part I largely disagree with in the other thread isn't so much about determining the "worth" of the Celts, but that they are only being compared to two other Civs: Ethiopia and Maya. I don't think it is fair to take such a limited analysis. Not only that, but it is [in the case of Ethiopia] comparing an obvious tall-oriented Civ with an obvious wide-oriented Civ. A fairer comparison would be Celts vs. other wide/domination Civs, at which point I'm not sure where the "weak Civ" argument even holds. No other wide/domination Civ has bonuses to faith generation. Most wide/domination Civs have zero happiness bonuses, the number one figure that determines how quickly you can take the map. Taking a wider analysis against all 34 Civs and Celts shouldn't be on the worst list, but rather they should be ranked up in the top third, easy.
 
Two of their promotions actually. The other one that carries over is pillaging costs no movement. Underrated perk that often gets overlooked with the Picts

And that bonus actually becomes incredibly powerful when tacked onto the fast moving lancers. Sure I understand the lancer isn't exactly a prefered unit, but you can wreak havoc on your enemies food and production with a group of pict-lancers. It's lots of fun :p
 
The way to play Celts is Pilgrimage and Holy Warriors. So OP.

Ethiopia is not as good as Celts.
 
And that bonus actually becomes incredibly powerful when tacked onto the fast moving lancers. Sure I understand the lancer isn't exactly a prefered unit, but you can wreak havoc on your enemies food and production with a group of pict-lancers. It's lots of fun :p

Yep. Upgraded Picts are basically Sipahi with 1 less move but a +20% combat bonus. They're pretty destructive, definitely useful for crippling the science leader.
 
The foreign lands bonus and the no movement cost to pillage promotions are preserved on upgrade, but the faith for kill attribute does not. That is consistent with other unique units -- promotions carry over, but unique attributes do not.
 
The foreign lands bonus and the no movement cost to pillage promotions are preserved on upgrade, but the faith for kill attribute does not. That is consistent with other unique units -- promotions carry over, but unique attributes do not.

How would you define unique attribute? Because there are some perks that no other civ's units can receive (e.g. Maori Warrior's -10% to adjacent enemies; Slinger's chance to withdraw from melee) that are always retained
 
The foreign lands bonus and the no movement cost to pillage promotions are preserved on upgrade, but the faith for kill attribute does not. That is consistent with other unique units -- promotions carry over, but unique attributes do not.

Not true. Jaguars earn 25 HP per kill (not a promotion), but it carries over (I'm 99% sure - someone correct me if I'm wrong). Also, free pillaging for Picts isn't a promotion either, but it still carries over.
 
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