Ethiopians?

today is not the end of the story either

History is a story. Stories have endings.

That's right, and any game you can win must have an ending too. I always get a kick out of the proclamation at the end of a Civ game: "The End of History." It's like an inside joke. Of course time keeps on going, but we're done with it.

Try this instead: imagine that the Europeans of Cluny Abbey designed a Civilization board game in 1000 AD, at the height of Christian thought. The technology tree would take a total back seat!

We'd still have a tech tree. It would just look very different. Sounds like a wild concept for a game, actually--or a scenario, anyway. I wouldn't call 1000 the height of Christian thought, though. There was an awful lot yet to come.
 
I'm not talking about a scenario that ends in 1000 AD. I'm talking about a scenario written in 1000 AD, by the pope. What if history were written by the fundamentalists? There wouldn't even be a technology tree! Technology would be a waste of time. There might be some kind of progression of abilities unlocked, but they wouldn't be technological or scientific.

That's because history is often told as a story, which necessarily has heros, beginnings, and endings. "The Cold War: America and the Soviet Union began to feud after the second world war, but USSR's economy collapsed by 1990." It's a convenient way to carve up a series of events. But in carving out that chunk of history in that framework, you ignore other conflicts outside that framework. In real life, there is no beginning, no ending, and no hero: there's all kinds of things happening everywhere, and they're important to large numbers of people.

This is the challenge that so many historians are concerned with today. It suggests that our true history lays just beyond the fog. And even a game like Civilization is slanted towards a subjective story about America and the West.
 
Well that's a do'h. Through the Eye of the Beholder. History is told differently by different people. On my last trip to Nigeria I picked up a few of my mom's old history textbooks at my grandma's house. I decided to read about the Punic wars and colonization. At the end I thought the Romans and British where lousy %#$@!& and the Carthaginians and The Ghana Empire where almost perfect. To contrast I then took a look at my books from school. There the Carthaginians where behind in everything but sea warfare and the Ghaneans only existed from trade with the Arabs. Funny is it not? In the west they don't have you writing essays about how your country gained its freedom.
 
History is organic and subjective. History, as a whole, doesn't end. "Endings" are merely forced upon it my humanity's need to make sense of it...
 
Their new leader sounds like a religious nut job...like isabella...[pissed] Can't take another one of those...:vomit:
 
History is organic and subjective. History, as a whole, doesn't end. "Endings" are merely forced upon it my humanity's need to make sense of it...

:clap: here is what the famous satirist Ambrose Bierce says on history:

HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.
 
History is organic and subjective. History, as a whole, doesn't end. "Endings" are merely forced upon it my humanity's need to make sense of it...

Extremely well summarized.

Probably also explains the vast number of European civilizations, wonders, and technologies too.
 
Saying 'endings' are forced on history after the fact really I think misses how histories are made.

There are a lot of times in the course of things, where there is a change in consciousness in a culture which causes certain institutions to end and other ones begin. For example, a lot of historians may argue that medieval Europe was really a continuation and adaptation of Roman institutions, and that there was really no 'collapse'. That's all fine, but there was some point in history where nobody could talk about 'Rome' in the same way anymore, because the concept of 'Rome' lost its institutional power.

This is more about how -history writes itself-, its less about how every aspect of Roman culture disappeared, than how because of inevitable circumstances the concept of a Roman authority existing piece by piece started to fall apart.

Similarly, people nitpick the idea that the change in the Renaissance from the middle ages was as large as has been talked about, but something that did happen is a sweeping change in consciousness that eventually took over where people looked at things differently. And history wrote itself.

We are under these changes all the time, the central fact about writing history may be that you focus on some rather than others, and it becomes centered around changes that the historian cares about. But to say these are arbitrary choices also I think is wrong.

Its more natural to focus on whats happening in positions of influence in powerful institutions than in something out of the way; to which history becomes about the change in institutions. In other words, its about the history of power.

And thats also part of our consciousness of history, because most people today, whether they're living in Ghana or Europe, recognize America as a major power and globalization as a major force. There are a lot of common ideologies prevailing, including postmodernism, which includes the idea that 'history is subjective', which itself is only a belief but one that is deeply influential today.

If any of these things change, it will be a change in consciousness and culture, and history will write itself again.

I think history has to be naturally organized around changes in consciousness, it has to track what people from a certain era thought about their own history and society, and how that changed.

And while 'Eurocentrism' did obscure a lot of what happened elsewhere and ignored other points of view, I think its an important focus and not arbitrary in that its concern is with institutional changes that occurred over the last few hundred years which were promoted and developed in Europe.

I don't think the story of the West was of subjective importance to its impact on the world.
 
And while 'Eurocentrism' did obscure a lot of what happened elsewhere and ignored other points of view, I think its an important focus and not arbitrary in that its concern is with institutional changes that occurred over the last few hundred years which were promoted and developed in Europe.

I don't think the story of the West was of subjective importance to its impact on the world.

It's definitely not of subjective importance, but it IS subjective. But as I stated earlier in the thread, it's not based on prejudice or arbitrary bias. To use your terminology, this coloring of history is more "natural" than any hidden agenda. Again, Europe IS dominant today. Civilization DID start in Mesopotamia. It's only natural that history follows that trajectory, and it's only natural that certain peoples' history or perspectives are left out of that story.

When I talk about Eurocentricism, it isn't to undermine the achievements of Europeans, which are obviously quite tremendous. But by shining the spotlight on how Eurocentricism works, it becomes easier to see what "gaps" there are in history that still need to be filled in. Those gaps are even in a game like Civilization 4: Eurocentricism explains why they would add more detail in the form of the Holy Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire (which are extensions of Germanic, Roman, and Greek Civilizations) sooner than adding another leader to India's illustrious and influential history -- let alone pulling India apart into Mughals and Mauryans.
 
:clap: here is what the famous satirist Ambrose Bierce says on history:

HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

The Devil's Dictionary is comedic gold. If anybody here hasn't read it, give it a go.

...

Okay, I really don't have anything to contribute on topic besides the fact that I agree with the one-line of Lance of Llanwy. But, as a mostly-European historian, I don't mind the Eurocentric bias of Civ4. :)
 
Reading this thread made me ask a question from those apparently learned individuals over here, for I am unhappy in my ignorance. So, once more:

"What has the sub-Saharan Africa ever contributed to Civilization?"
Now - please don't tell me to go read my history. I do not think that they were exclusively "ze . .. .. .. .. .. .-barbarians living in ze mud huts". I know there were "powerful empires ruling large cities full of wealthy merchants and skilled craftsmen".

But still, what did they contribute? Sumerians gave us Wheel. Romans gave us Aqueducts. Chinese gave us paper, compass and gunpowder. Greeks (Phoenicians) gave us Alphabet. Egyptians gave ox-drawn plows and 365-day calendar, Indians number zero and so forth and so on, from the top of my head.

Could somebody name a lasting contribution to technology or science from Songhai/ Benin/ Ghana/ Zanj/ Great Zimbabwe or whatever place sub-Saharan?
 
Could somebody name a lasting contribution to technology or science from Songhai/ Benin/ Ghana/ Zanj/ Great Zimbabwe or whatever place sub-Saharan?

science, maybe not as much, though there is the University of Timbuktu as a wonder for Warlords...

anyhow, many of these African nations were important parts of the international trade route that existed before European world domination. the West African states - Mali, Songhai, etc., were great producers of many things, including gold and salt. they were rich enough that their King, Mansa Musa, could afford to send himself and a whole bunch of people with him on a long pilgraimage to Mecca.

other African states, the ones in the Central, South, and East, were part of the Asian maritime trade route that stretched from Africa itself, to Arabia and Persia, India, SouthEast Asia, and China along with Japan and Korea.

so the Africans did contribute much to the world economy before the Europeans. in fact, had not the Europeans not dominated the world and it been another peoples, like the CHinese, Indians, or Persians or whatever, the Africans would've played even more of an important role in the development of the world.
 
Yeekum - The question makes an assumption that technical innovation is the pinnacle of a civilization's worth, which may or may not be true.
Trade, (wasn't there a library or learning center down there?) Science
and an Enviromental sensibility are ideas that have not been discarded by mankind, whereas many others have more or less been at best reduced to insignifigance.- like "ox-drawn plows".
But not to shirk the question ....what did Sub Saharan Civs give to mankind
invention wise....maybe the first ideas.
The Nazis had all kinds of inventions but their empire was shorter than short. (Although the impact tech wise was huge. Minoans were probably ripped off in a similar fashion.
In "guns, germs, and steel " or something like that , the author talked about movable type (clay)that was found (early Minoan?) which he suggested predated movable type (metal) by a few hundred years.- The point is maybe the "story" part of history is more important in mankind's development than an indivudual civilization's tech invention. (In so far as linearity and progession of tech.)
 
"What did they contribute to science" is a loaded question. One, it assumes that science is the only thing that one can contribute to civilization (as opposed to wealth, religion, organization, communication, lasting peace...) Two, it assumes that you are only contributing to civilization if you throw it into this collective pot that the Europeans eventually draw upon (as opposed to more private accomplishments, like how the Olmecs had a lodestone compass back in 1000 BC, or troytheface's example of Minoan civilization having movable type).

Mali had one of the world's first universities (screw Oxford and Cambridge). It also had the first public school system. That's partially because they were the source of half the world's gold before they were robbed and looted by colonization. That indicates the old political idea that the more wealthy a country is, the more a citizen should be taken care of. Besides that, Mansa Musa caused a recession in Egypt with his liberal charity of gold. The gold had already been an attraction for many Arab and European travelers, who would end up staying and learning at the University. This was arguably the greatest library in the world at one brief moment in time.

I wish I knew more about Ethiopia, although they were likely the people who Muhammed encountered in the deserts of Yemen. So, in a way, they probably influenced Islam. Their Christianity splintered off long before Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestantism -- so they're kind of unto themselves. You have to imagine, Christianity spread west to Rome, but also spread south and east to Ethiopia, and the Roman Catholic Church was established at the same time as the Ethiopian Coptic Orthodox Church. The differences are inevitable. But their contribution to Christianity, as an ally of the Eastern Roman Empire who would invade the Arabian peninsula, is probably their most notable. (Aside from their ability to resist colonization -- something even China couldn't do.)
 
I'm talking about a scenario written in 1000 AD, by the pope

Yes, I know. That would be a fascinating scenario. And it doesn't make sense to say there would be no tech tree--not with all the religious and social "technologies" already in the game.
 
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I think the point has floated right by you, for some strange reason.

Straight up: the epic game is just one long scenario from 4000 BC to 2000 AD. The path to dominance is going to be the same path that the real life "winners" -- the Europeans -- took. If this were written by the Pope in the dark ages, the epic game would look very different. If this were written in Arabia in 1000 AD, even more different. Not just different Civilizations. (The Arabs would likely include the Aksum Empire sooner than lowly Charlemagne.) Different ideas of what progress and victory are.
 
I don't get why you don't think I get what you're saying. Designing a scenario as if it were written in the year 1000 would be a fascinating project.
 
You understand what I'm saying, but seem a little dense about the point. Otherwise you wouldn't be disagreeing with me on the finer details of designing a dark ages scenario.

The point is about which civilizations are included in the game, and which are excluded. Such a debate is at the center of whether the Ethiopians are a good choice.
 
Hmm.... I think we should kill the topic now. This has been floating around for ages.
 
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