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EU after enlargement - your comments?

10Seven said:
I don't understand this idea of the 'old' european countries having trouble competing with China, etc. Is the issue to overall economy size?

Well, I'm no economist, but there's a few jey reasons that I know of. One is simply that China is industrializing, which results in rapid economic growth. Most of Europe did this quite some time ago, and obviously can't do it again. Another is China's massive population. More people working equals more product/GDP/commerce/etc. generated. A third is China's relatively lax labour laws. This encourages MNCs to invest there as they don't have to care about the employees. I'm sure an economist will come along sooner or later to further address your question.

:) Also, a new 'Euro' language could be created - imagine that :cry:

"Universal" (as in, "universal for Europe") languages have been attempted here there. Esperanto is by far the most well-known. Some of the driving principles behind it included attempting to take the most common words from the European languages as well as the most simplistic and straightforward grammatical devices. It had limited success.
 
10Seven said:
Also, a new 'Euro' language could be created - imagine that :cry:

such a language already exists. its called Latin.
 
Winner said:
What bases? You mean Franco-German bases (read as "economic stagnation")?
I mean social and political basis (read : "not just money and business").
But well, the liberals (European meaning) are winning, making the EU more and more a simple big free market, and less and less a sociopolitical entity.

SN must be overjoyed :rolleyes:
 
The enlargement happened at least 10 years too early. West Europeans are the losers, East Europeans the winner. Nothing to be satisfied with.
 
Western europeans could be winners too, if they embraced some reforms... I'm pretty sure Ireland didn't lose a thing.
 
Except for the fact that I find "New Europe's" social policies (Polish religious conservatism) to be repugnant, I think that the western nations could use some freer markets with the east. Everyone would win in the long run.
 
Damnyankee said:
I think Xen was alluding to the Roman Empire with that, but :p
If he was, its still irrelevant, if one compares the land controlled by the Roman Empire at its greatest extent and the land controlled by the EU. The Romans never got as far as the EU has, and I imagine speakers of Slavic or Germanic languages would be quite miffed at being forced to speak Latin. My vote goes to Esperanto.


I'm for European enlargement, but I think France and Germany should just bite the bullet and let their markets get undercut by Eastern European immigrants and allow more universal business regulations. Wealth, like all things, naturally diffuses from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. By propping up regulations that keep wealth in the Western nations, the Western Europeans are just unnaturally delaying what SHOULD be the inevitable. If left in a relatively free (still protected so as to discourage rampant exploitation) and completely universal (to Europe) market, poorer countries will attract more new business because of the cheapness of labor. As jobs flow into the area, people will have larger disposable incomes, new industries will arise to take advantage of this new buying power, and the country will prosper. Richer countries, conversely, will experience some stagnation. The flow of immigrants that sought jobs in the richer countries will even out a bit, as some workers return east. Wealth will eventually be equitably distributed across Europe. The Western countries will no longer need to pay a majority of the taxes; and because wealth is equally distributed less money will need to be spent on enforcing regulations that keep wealth concentrated. The total prosperity of Europe goes up, even if the prosperity of the East leads to France and Germany becoming relatively less rich. Furthermore, a healthy system in which wealth is stratified but equally distributed along these strata will result in maximum growth potential, as there is a maximum number of investors and capitalists and a maximum number of workers and consumers.
If Europe pulls it off right it could become a model for global distribution of wealth.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
It sounds funny; but you're missing a very crucial point:
Germany, France and the Netherlands actually pay for almost everything in the EU. So, why should they accept completely one-sided benefits for other countries?

But this isn't true. Protectionism ISN'T good for any of the two sides. Pretectionism means you're spending money for protecting those who aren't able to compete. By protecting them, you are hindering them from achieving better efficiency. Also, people working in these branches can't be transfered to more efficient ones (that means branches that are able to compete) and therefore their salaries remain lower than they can potentialy be. In fact the protectionism is VERY, VERY harmful for both sides. Politicians in protectionist countries see only the short term consequences (higher unemployment, enraged people), but ingore the fact, that by protecting inefficient industries to preserve jobs they undermine the prospect for the future prosperity.

(The US has for example tried to protect its automobile industry by imposing higher tariffs for Japanese cars. The result? Saved about 60,000 jobs, but more expensive cars. Some economist estimated that total cost of one saved job was about 100,000 US dollars - money paid by american taxpayers)

Flat taxes are impossible to achieve in welfare states; for the sole reason the pension payments do not allow this. The 'new' economies in Eastern/Central Europe do not suffer from that problem (how much does the average pensionist get in Poland? A fraction of what he gets in Germany, not even mentioning we have to fund the former GDR).

I guess Polish pensions are a fraction of German ones only because the overall salaries in Poland are about five-times lower as well. In Slovakia (my favourite example ;) ), they have done pension and healthcare reforms and introduced the 19% flat tax. Their GDP growth is about 5,5% and budget deficits are decreasing. In fact, Slovakia would be probably among the first new members adopting Euro.

Problem of the Western (and parts of Central and Eastern) Europe is that the pension systems are obsolete. They must be privatisied (or semi-privatisied as in Slovakia - the government still oversee the companies providing pensions to ensure the people will get their money back) to make it less bureaucratic and more efficient.

(BTW in CZ we have the same problems with pensions as the Western Europe, because the politicans are unable to agree on some reform :-( )

So, this kind of unfair competition advantages is nothing those who pay the entire bill have to accept.

Unfair? I don't see why. Western providers of services have also their advantages - bigger capital.

But as I said, there is not any "unfair competition" in EU. The rules are set and are the same for everyone. Competition is very healthy and the EU desperately needs it.

BTW one example of so-called unfair behaviour: after introducing of the road toll in Germany and Austria, the trucks from these two countries are usually using Czech roads and motorways, because they are much cheaper. Our roads are mostly in bad condition and this additional damage costs us much. If we were not in the EU, we would simply introduce some kind of a fee for foreign trucks. But because of our membership this option isn't possible. Therefore our only way left to stop foreign trucks crowding our roads is to increase the overall fee for ALL trucks, including ours. But our transport companies don't have enough money for that, their capital is much lower than capital of foreign (western) companies. It's them who will suffer.

It is unfair? Yes, it is, but that's how the EU (and trade in general) works - it ignores the fact the subjects don't have the same starting conditions. Your only option than is to do you best to compete with the others.

Now, if the EU would be funded by every country paying the same x % of the BNP....

I agree.
 
Akka said:
I mean social and political basis (read : "not just money and business").
But well, the liberals (European meaning) are winning, making the EU more and more a simple big free market, and less and less a sociopolitical entity.

SN must be overjoyed :rolleyes:

Social and political basis is nice, but secondary. The reality is, that it is economy what must be unified at first, only than you can try to create true political union.

And BTW, at least where I live, the people aren't against the idea of federalized Europe. They are only a little bit conservative and cautious. For them, it is the economy what matters, because our living standard is only about 50-60% of that in Western Europe. But when they see, that "old" members doesn't want to treat new members equally and than they want their cooperation with political unification, they are of course against it, because they fear the bigger power of Western states will only decrease their chance to push through vital economical liberalisation.

SN must fear what new mebers propose very much ;)
 
This poses a threat to all other major economies in the world. Now that Europe is no longer squabbling among themselves as much in this respect, they can fight fire with fire against any other economy in the world.

NAFTA can't compete I'm sorry to say.
 
That law would have allowed service businesses, including companies from the lower-cost nations, to operate all over Europe but still be accountable to their own national regulations.

Which would result in companies looking for the member state
with the least rigorous national regulations and registering there.

e.g. if company employs mainly women and French maternity pay
is more generous than Poland, the company merely re-registers in
Poland and pays its staff in France the Polish rates.

A race to the bottom.
 
An editorial on the subject of economic reform in the EU. Bolded by me.
Linky
Europe's newest members challenge the old
By Carl Bildt
published in the Financial Times: 2 March 2005


The resilience of the productivity revolution in the US and the failure of the Lisbon process of economic reform in Europe often make it seem as though the European economy is in crisis.

Hopes that this month's term review of the Lisbon agenda by European Union leaders will change that picture are not high. Some governments seem more interested in fighting than supporting proposals from the new, reform-oriented European Commission under José Manuel Barroso.

But the focus on top-down economic reforms has distracted people from another, potentially far more important, process of change - a bottom-up economic restructuring triggered by EU enlargement.

The 10 countries that joined the EU last May increased the size of the Union's economy by only about 5 per cent, but their impact on the process of economic restructuring is likely to be far greater.

In fact, the forces of competition are probably increasing faster in Europe than anywhere else in the global economy, triggering an overhaul of the manufacturing sector and changes in the regulatory and tax environment.

Take flat taxes. Estonia got the bandwagon rolling in 1991, but the flat-tax principle has since proven its worth in other "Baltic tiger" economies. Estonia started with a 26 per cent income tax; it has since reduced that to 24 per cent and is aiming to cut it to 20 per cent. Lithuania just announced its intention to lower its 33 per cent flat tax rate gradually to 24 per cent.

The second wave of this revolution was started by Slovakia as it desperately tried to catch up with the other central European nations. Its radical 19 per cent tax on income, capital and consumption is set to transform Slovakia and has become a new benchmark for the rest of central Europe. With elections coming up in Poland this year and the Czech Republic next year, the leading opposition parties are advocating flat taxes. Hungary will not be far behind. Romania introduced a flat tax this year.

The big question is when the third wave - which would see this flat-tax bandwagon roll into one of the "old" EU states - will come. It is not imminent - but on present trends it may well be unavoidable.


When the World Bank recently assessed reforms to improve the business climate around the world, it concluded that Slovakia was the world's leading reformer, and that in general "the major impetus for reform was competition in the enlarged European Union". No fewer than seven of the top 10 reformers in the global economy were existing or new EU members.

With Slovakia as a neighbour, Austria has had to reform its corporate taxes, with positive results. Now Bavaria is feeling the heat, and pressure on Berlin is increasing. In the north, Finland is feeling the pull of Estonia next door and Sweden will not be able to ignore the changes that may result.

This is only one part of the change triggered by enlargement. Whereas during the 1990s European industry looked west and invested heavily in the US, manufacturers are now starting to look east. The flow of investment is heading towards eastern Europe and east Asia, where Europe's new production capacity is increasingly located.

The automotive industry illustrates the trend. With only rare exceptions, new plants are being built in the east. In a few years' time, Slovakia will be producing more cars per capita than any other country in the world.

In Germany, there are fears that the country is turning into a "bazaar economy", where factories merely assemble finished products from components produced elsewhere. But if Germany is turning into a bazaar, it is for the positive reason that integration of the European economy is taking a quantum leap forward.

As it restructures under the pressure of globalisation and enlargement, European manufacturing industry is becoming more competitive. Throughout central Europe both manufacturing output and exports grew in double digits last year.

Governments can grumble as much as they like - and to little effect - but for most it will be a question either of reforming their economy or starting to lose important parts of it.

Not everything is rosy in Europe. But, with the strong wave of economic reform coming from the east, it should come as no surprise if, after a decade of disappointing expectations, the European economy soon begins to exceed forecasts. If that happens, it is likely to be down to the "Tallinn-Bratislava process" rather than the Lisbon process.

The writer is former prime minister of Sweden, chairman of the Kreab Group and board member of the Centre for European Reform.
 
Very intersting article, Hakim. :goodjob:

Clearly the european nations have to make a choice. Either they embrace the "eastern wave" and become one of the leading economic powers of the world, or they continue in the relative decline they have been since WW1.
 
Winner, I think you already know my position. Economic liberalism is crap. So is every ideology that preaches that only maximizing the amount of money without some (re)distribution is the way to go. That's against the spirit the West European or at least the German society is built on. I challenge the liberal claim that what is good for companies and the rich people is good for the whole society.

Now with reference to the enlargement, we have to recognize that it is economically beneficial to German companies who can now raise their profits even more by conquering new markets and transfering factories etc.
But it is not beneficial to the common man. Real wages are stagnating or declining, poverty is rising, the welfare state is going to be cut even more than necessary, unemployment is still high and we may finally end up with a copy of the American economic system. I'm sorry to say that but for many people in Germany the outlook to have economic policies as liberal as they are in some East European countries is a nightmare.
I also believe that the differences between the old and the new members are way too extreme (you mentioned the Polish wages...).

Now, politically the enlargement will pretty much slow down the European integration. I don't expect any significant institutional reforms in the next decade. 25, or soon 27 members (with a lot of different interests) aren't able to find efficient compromises to deepen the integration (this is even mentioned in your article). It is also known that the majority of the new members are more reserved against deeper integration. There are certainly some people in West Europe who are glad about that, but I'm not. I believe this European Union badly needs political reforms in order to strengthen the ability to solve problems and to get rid of the obvious deficits in the matter of democratic legitimacy.

I'm also under the impression that the new members tend to rather cooperate with the US instead of "Old Europe". I don't say I can't understand that (they certainly have good reasons), but I consider that to be against our interests. This isn't meant to be US bashing, btw. However, I do believe that some members in a situation in which they were forced to choose between the US and Western Europe, they'd side with the US. Now of course, that's pretty much what SN is dreaming about. ;)

All in all, the old EU should have waited longer. Institutional reforms first, then enlargement. Also we could have observed the economic development in East Europeans, look at the development of the wages, the welfare state, make a welfare state worth mentioning a condition for enlargement etc.
But the 2004 enlargement conditions are harming us and will continue to do so. Good for the East Europeans, bad for us. Depending on the development in the next years (which I expect to be horrific), I may possibly change my pro-EU stance or call for a core Europe while letting today's EU degenerate into a second NAFTA. But we'll see...


Winner said:
I guess Polish pensions are a fraction of German ones only because the overall salaries in Poland are about five-times lower as well. In Slovakia (my favourite example ;) ), they have done pension and healthcare reforms and introduced the 19% flat tax. Their GDP growth is about 5,5% and budget deficits are decreasing. In fact, Slovakia would be probably among the first new members adopting Euro.
And who cares about GDP growth when your salaries are about five-times lower? Yeah, they may reach some day the current Western European standards...in about 100 years. :rolleyes:
Seems to be more realistic that we reach the Polish level in 20 years...

Problem of the Western (and parts of Central and Eastern) Europe is that the pension systems are obsolete. They must be privatisied (or semi-privatisied as in Slovakia - the government still oversee the companies providing pensions to ensure the people will get their money back) to make it less bureaucratic and more efficient.
Certainly not more for efficient for those who are depending on social security...


BTW one example of so-called unfair behaviour: after introducing of the road toll in Germany and Austria, the trucks from these two countries are usually using Czech roads and motorways, because they are much cheaper. Our roads are mostly in bad condition and this additional damage costs us much. If we were not in the EU, we would simply introduce some kind of a fee for foreign trucks. But because of our membership this option isn't possible. Therefore our only way left to stop foreign trucks crowding our roads is to increase the overall fee for ALL trucks, including ours. But our transport companies don't have enough money for that, their capital is much lower than capital of foreign (western) companies. It's them who will suffer.
There are not many countries in Europe which suffer from that much foreign traffic than Germany (because of the position in Central Europe). Who do you think pays for our environment, roads etc.?
I'm glad that the road toll finally works. :thumbsup:
 
Interesting "applied" result of the reforms. Slovakia institutes 19 percent flat tax; in a few years, it will become the leading per capita producer of cars in the world.

Fascinating.
 
kronic said:
Winner, I think you already know my position. Economic liberalism is crap. So is every ideology that preaches that only maximizing the amount of money without some (re)distribution is the way to go. That's against the spirit the West European or at least the German society is built on. I challenge the liberal claim that what is good for companies and the rich people is good for the whole society.

That proves only that you don't understand liberalism.

Now with reference to the enlargement, we have to recognize that it is economically beneficial to German companies who can now raise their profits even more by conquering new markets and transfering factories etc.
But it is not beneficial to the common man. Real wages are stagnating or declining, poverty is rising, the welfare state is going to be cut even more than necessary, unemployment is still high and we may finally end up with a copy of the American economic system. I'm sorry to say that but for many people in Germany the outlook to have economic policies as liberal as they are in some East European countries is a nightmare.
I also believe that the differences between the old and the new members are way too extreme (you mentioned the Polish wages...).

Short term effects of transition. After the pressure from the East will force Germany to do true, deep reforms, situation of "common man" will improve rapidly. In new member states (to be more accurate, CZ, Hungary, Poland or Slovakia), the average wages doubled or tripled during 10 years.

Now, politically the enlargement will pretty much slow down the European integration. I don't expect any significant institutional reforms in the next decade. 25, or soon 27 members (with a lot of different interests) aren't able to find efficient compromises to deepen the integration (this is even mentioned in your article). It is also known that the majority of the new members are more reserved against deeper integration. There are certainly some people in West Europe who are glad about that, but I'm not. I believe this European Union badly needs political reforms in order to strengthen the ability to solve problems and to get rid of the obvious deficits in the matter of democratic legitimacy.

Completely false. Try to look on some tables from Eurostat. New member countries are indeed a little bit more sceptical, but not so much as you think. Britain is far more sceptical.

I'm also under the impression that the new members tend to rather cooperate with the US instead of "Old Europe". I don't say I can't understand that (they certainly have good reasons), but I consider that to be against our interests. This isn't meant to be US bashing, btw. However, I do believe that some members in a situation in which they were forced to choose between the US and Western Europe, they'd side with the US. Now of course, that's pretty much what SN is dreaming about. ;)

Again, false impression. All new members are pretty pro-EU. Some governments used the Iraq crisis to improve their relations with US, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean they want join American Union instead of European ;)

All in all, the old EU should have waited longer. Institutional reforms first, then enlargement. Also we could have observed the economic development in East Europeans, look at the development of the wages, the welfare state, make a welfare state worth mentioning a condition for enlargement etc.

Haha ;) :D Obviously, western welfare state economies are UNABLE to compete with n.m. countries. Western Europe (except Britain and Ireland) stagnates, while the Eastern grows rapidly. What other proof you need to admit the welfare state is inefficient?

But the 2004 enlargement conditions are harming us and will continue to do so. Good for the East Europeans, bad for us. Depending on the development in the next years (which I expect to be horrific), I may possibly change my pro-EU stance or call for a core Europe while letting today's EU degenerate into a second NAFTA. But we'll see...

You simply blame the others for your faults. That's not good.

And who cares about GDP growth when your salaries are about five-times lower? Yeah, they may reach some day the current Western European standards...in about 100 years. :rolleyes:

:D GDP growth is the MOST IMPORTANT index. When the GDP grows it means that the overall wealth of the country is increasing. The growth of salaries is closely connected with the growth of GDP. You can see it on the example of Germany ;)
Then, salaries are five times lower, but that dosn't mean the living standard is five times lower. Due to lower prices, the living standard is about 60% of that of Western Europe (EU15).
Than, your estimated time is completly unrealistic. If the current growth of Eastern Europe continues, it will reach the living standard of EU15 in about 20-30 years. That isn't so bad provided that the West had 40 years for development, while the Eastern states suffered under communist rule.

Seems to be more realistic that we reach the Polish level in 20 years...

That is completely realistic, if the Poles will do some reforms (they are still too socialistic - as we are).

Certainly not more for efficient for those who are depending on social security...

Everybody gets his pensions, including those who aren't exactly rich. But if you want same pensions for everybody, you would be surely disappointed.
 
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