EU3-Style Civics: Good idea or bad?

[Jabarto]

It's no secret that the BTS style of civics doesn't make a lot of sense. Even with Lawrie and company's excellent work for ROM, there are still a lot of inconsistencies in what they represent. I mean, who's ever heard of a liberal theocracy?

Now, I've been playing Europa Universalis 3 a lot lately, and it's given a some ideas for Civ 4 civics but for reasons I'm about to outline, I'm not sure they would work in practice.

What I want to do is do away with the various civic columns, save one which will contain all civic optons. In other words, it'd be like cvi 3 where you only have one government "package" that determines how your civ operates.

The obvious downside here is that it would severely curtail the flexibility of the system. It would also require me to make new copies of some of the premade maps for ROM to be compatible with the new system. On the other hand, each civic would be much more distinct than is now, and (I think) the whole system would make a bit more sense.

As for the actual civics, here is a list of what I had in mind;

Tribal Despotism - This would be the starting government. Think the Native Americans.
Feudal Monarchy - you know what this is.
Despotic Monarchy - a monarchy where the king has unlimited power
Administrative Monarchy - a monarchy based around bureacracy. Think Qin Dynasty China.
Caste Monarchy - think ancient and medieval India.
Constitutional Monarchy - Think Norway.
Theocratic Government - you probably know what this is, too.
Enlightened Despotism - THink Frederick the Great's rule.
Imperial Government - think the British or Ottoman empires.
Military Order - think the Knights Templar.
Absolute Monarchy - like a despotism, but with more religious overtones. THink 1600's France.
Merchant Republic - a republic based on commerce. Think medieval Venice.
Noble Republic - a republic with a strong aristocracy. Think ancient Greece.
Administrative Republic - republic based around bureaucracy. Think Holland during the Enlightenment.
Constitutional Republic - a Republic with a constitution. Think the U.S.
Parliamentary Democracy - to be determined.
Communist Dictatorship - think Stalinist Russia.
Socialist Republic - to be dtermined.

So what do you all think? Does this sound like a good idea or not? Or would you like to hear more about my plans for the governments before you decide?

 

[Beamed]

That is already somewhat achieved by the civics themselves - they collectively represent what government you have.

EU3 is great, by the way.

EDIT: I realize I should elaborate. As it is, the civics serve the purpose of standing in for all these governments already. To remove the civics would be taking away options for greater realism - and more options means, simply, more enjoyability out of the game, so long as balance and atmosphere are maintained.

 

[Afforess]

You're not the only one to hate Civic as they are. Come on, the name doesn't even make sense! Government's aren't run by "civics"; they are run by departments (or ministries, depending where you live). I already rewrote the civics in the form of departments, but am waiting for my Civic Attitude Modifier to be done before I can release them.

 

[GONdorman]

It DOES seem like a good idea, but you´ve forgotten about Social Democracy and Fascism

Besides, what you call Parlamentary Republics tend to have Constitutions. In fact, Constitutional Republics are often parlamentary... So it would be EXTREMELY complicated to fit all in one column. I personally think the current RoM civics are good enough

 

[Beamed]

I'm fine if we do away with the current implementation of various civics in favor of governments, but only if there are a plethora of options, and not necessarily progressive ones, either. Ie. You should not want to get rid of a despotic monarchy, for example, but be forced to do so due to people getting angry, or needing a more efficient government, etc.

 

[Freakwave]

This thought crossed my mind on several occasions also. How would you like to implement it? have only one civic category with the list of governments you showed? so you and the ai can only have one active at times? This leaves other civic categories neglected.

Yes i like EU3 also and next friday has the release of MMP2

 

[Jabarto]

Thanks for the replies, all. I'm thinking I probably won't do this in the end, as the ROM civics are pretty good (okay, *really* good) and it'd be a lot of work. But one thing I noticed is that none of those government options, save one or two, really offer any kind of religious policy. That would open up a second civic category. But unless some more ideas come to me about how to represent them with a greater variety of options, nothing will likely come of this.

Oh, and while I love EU3, Freakwave, I'm not a Magna Mundi fan. THat mod is just too hard for its own good.

 

[Freakwave]

I'm sure we can come up with something. Pretty much all goverment forms allow religion save communism. So if you choose communism then only atheism is allowed. Don't ask me how it works if you change to communism, religion allowed civics gets unselected for instance. Easiest way would be one category of civics (you can choose religion in its own tab even add an atheism religion if you will)

Looking at the vanilla civics something like this must be possible. Like beamed posted it should be a natural choice, ideally! not necessarily. Then i think of RevDCM citysize, number of cities, distance etc. Also the age changes could add a trigger for reforms in some way, like TotalRealism mod has. Not reforms but one unhappy per age change. That would mean that backwards civs dont have the age change trigger ala EU3 modernisation. And less incentive to reform in a new type of gov.

National decisions from EU3 come to mind here. Sort of civics in their own right. If i had more knowledge why the ai chooses certain civics, but that can be investigated. Just thinking out loud...

MMP isnt that hard, go with the flow, make it work for you, don't run walk!

Don't give up on this. I will help!

 

[Jabarto]

National decisions from EU3 come to mind here. Sort of civics in their own right. If i had more knowledge why the ai chooses certain civics, but that can be investigated. Just thinking out loud...

Wait a sec. Do you mean the decisions or the National Ideas? Because the latter is a really good idea (the former might be best suited to random events). We could have a governemnt column for the main governments I outlined above, 5 other columns (Trade, Exploration, State Business, Land and Naval) and add the apropriate ideas to each column (Merchant Adventures to Trade, Military Drill to Land, etc). We'd probably have to scrap at least a few from each category - morale can't really be represented in Civ 4, for instance - but I"m sure we could get about 4 or 5 options per column.

Don't give up on this. I will help!

Thanks.

 

[Afforess]

Hey guys, I drew this up a while ago, but haven't gotten my civic attitude modifier to work yet, so never coded it.

I thought it would be more realistic. What do you guys think?

 

[Jabarto]

I like it a lot, but 14 categories might be a little too much.

 

[Afforess]

I like it a lot, but 14 categories might be a little too much.

I tried to make them each have less options and lower effects. I was planning to make them into more like a department/ministries system, instead of civics. There are even more Federal Department than that in the US, but I cut some that were pretty worthless.

 

[MrAdam]

I tried to make them each have less options and lower effects. I was planning to make them into more like a department/ministries system, instead of civics. There are even more Federal Department than that in the US, but I cut some that were pretty worthless.

That. Is. Awesome. So much customization and it makes far more sense.

 

[Afforess]

That. Is. Awesome. So much customization and it makes far more sense.

That's what I thought, but if there are any modifiers you want added or removed, tell me why, and I'll consider it.

 

[Deon]

I personally thought about "main" civics and "sub" civics, where main civics allow/disallow secondary ones, like you can't run slavery with democracy or free religion with theocracy etc. We should have more categories to make it more interesting, but if it's possible mechanics-wise, it would be cool.

This way:

Feudal Monarchy - you know what this is.
Despotic Monarchy - a monarchy where the king has unlimited power
Administrative Monarchy - a monarchy based around bureacracy. Think Qin Dynasty China.
Caste Monarchy - think ancient and medieval India.
Constitutional Monarchy - Think Norway.

will ALL fall under "monarchy" tree with various secondary civics selected, etc.

 

[Freakwave]

Wait a sec. Do you mean the decisions or the National Ideas? Because the latter is a really good idea (the former might be best suited to random events). We could have a governemnt column for the main governments I outlined above, 5 other columns (Trade, Exploration, State Business, Land and Naval) and add the apropriate ideas to each column (Merchant Adventures to Trade, Military Drill to Land, etc). We'd probably have to scrap at least a few from each category - morale can't really be represented in Civ 4, for instance - but I"m sure we could get about 4 or 5 options per column.

Thanks.

Yes i mean national ideas. They are like mini civics, since their effects are most of the time less than a Civ4 civic.

What you are suggesting with the 5 categories lies more in the renaissance sphere.
I'm a proponent of minimal civics categories. Atm prefferably one category. You can pretty much stuff most civics into one column. In exchange for alot of government types to reflect all historical possibilities.

Now i think of if serfdom and other labor civics arent mutually exclusive, since historically you had slave trade/slavery overseas and free citizens at home.

Hey guys, I drew this up a while ago, but haven't gotten my civic attitude modifier to work yet, so never coded it.

I thought it would be more realistic. What do you guys think?

A lot of categories. Nice for players who like choices, how will the ai deal with this?

I personally thought about "main" civics and "sub" civics, where main civics allow/disallow secondary ones, like you can't run slavery with democracy or free religion with theocracy etc. We should have more categories to make it more interesting, but if it's possible mechanics-wise, it would be cool.

This way:

will ALL fall under "monarchy" tree with various secondary civics selected, etc.

If there was only one column you can put all effects you want in one civic per government and dont have to worry about these exclusions.



Will be out of town for a few days.

Later!

 

[MrAdam]

That's what I thought, but if there are any modifiers you want added or removed, tell me why, and I'll consider it.

Hmm

Why does Despotism/Science reduce science output? Is it because the government tries to keep the people ignorant to facilitate exploitation?

Military units give +1 Happiness (Maybe .5 Happiness, but I need to change Int to Float)

Maybe military units should remove unhappiness instead? Or like let's say there's 5 unhappiness but 8 unhappiness but since there are 3 archers in the cities there aren't any of those angry citizens who refuse to work? But that might be unrealistic to code

Abolishment of Religion should prevent great prophets from coming and prevent use of priest specialists.
Glad to see you took away the build bonus for the equivalent of "free religion", it was pretty unbalanced

Mixed Economy should give happiness and health imo
Since there aren't really depression/boom periods in the game Keynesian Economics seems out of place
I think Command Economy should increase production but decrease wealth.

Why does MAD stop foreign trade?
Religious Training should reduce science output. And should make non-state religions unhappy.

Mind Control (Requires: Cybernetics)
Medium Upkeep
-25% Science output
-25% Culture output
-25% Commerce Output
Population does not add unhealthiness

I'm guessing you meant unhappiness instead of unhealthiness?

Open borders seems too strong compared to closed borders.

Other then that it looks great

 

[Afforess]

Why does Despotism/Science reduce science output? Is it because the government tries to keep the people ignorant to facilitate exploitation?

That was my thought anyway. "Ignorance is Strength", anyone?

Maybe military units should remove unhappiness instead? Or like let's say there's 5 unhappiness but 8 unhappiness but since there are 3 archers in the cities there aren't any of those angry citizens who refuse to work? But that might be unrealistic to code

I'm not sure that's even possible... Anyways, +happiness is the same as -unhappiness, for all practical purposes. I think I am going to change that function from an integer (whole numbers) to a float, which can hold decimals. That way the effect isn't so extreme.

Abolishment of Religion should prevent great prophets from coming and prevent use of priest specialists.

Good Idea.

Mixed Economy should give happiness and health imo

I tried to make each of the civic classes independent of one another. Your economic policy might make people happier, but it will make some people unhappier as well. In general, as long as it isn't extreme, this balances out.

Since there aren't really depression/boom periods in the game Keynesian Economics seems out of place

It's really the in-between philosophy for Communism and Capitalism.

I think Command Economy should increase production but decrease wealth.

Indeed, How did I miss that?

Why does MAD stop foreign trade?

I'm sure I had a reason a few weeks ago, but I've forgotten it. Removed.

Religious Training should reduce science output. And should make non-state religions unhappy.

For all Practical purposes, it does. Switching from Written Tradition to Religious Training will decrease science by 5%. Plus, Religious training is better than none at all, imo.

I'm guessing you meant unhappiness instead of unhealthiness?

Yeah, good catch. I fixed that.

Open borders seems too strong compared to closed borders.

Not really. It may seem that faster growing cities is always a plus, but it isn't Sometimes, slower growth is a good thing, especially if your cities are already too unhappy or too unhealthy. I actually coded the AI logic for that like this. If the AI has lots of happiness, they prefer faster growth, if the AI has lots of unhappiness, they'll favor slower growth. Closed borders would be helpful if your empire is experiencing stability issues. However, I did add a "Cities are slightly less rebellious" modifier to Closed Borders, just now; and the opposite to open borders.

Oh, another thing. If you looked at my civic-overhaul list, you might notice that my Ideologies are missing. That i because I was planning on having it so the civics you choose added a new modifier that decided your ideologies (like the political compass) and gave you an extra +/- modifiers based on your ideology. I'll do that if I can ever get Civic Attitude Modifiers to work.

 

[cheesemijit]

those civics sound great. will they each have a civic building? i do like that idea.

 

[generalstaff]

I'm sure we can come up with something. Pretty much all goverment forms allow religion save communism. So if you choose communism then only atheism is allowed. Don't ask me how it works if you change to communism, religion allowed civics gets unselected for instance. Easiest way would be one category of civics (you can choose religion in its own tab even add an atheism religion if you will)

The better solution would be for Communist to have "No State Religion." That way, the only two logical Religious Civics for Communist would be "Atheist" and "Secular," which would represent two different ways Communist regimes would hand churchs (either dismantling (Atheist) or separating them from the civic sphere and ignoring them (Secular)).

If find that most of the governments described can be emulated through combinations of various civics. (Imperial Government (Monarchy-Bureaucracy (-Free Church for Ottomans)), Enlightened Monarchy (Monarchy-Liberal), Noble Republic (Republic-Nobility-likely Bourgeoisie-maybe Slavery))