Eureka: Some speculations and worries

[chaosprophet]

There is a third option: Disallow switching the tech midway.

Another option related with yours: you can change research, but you lose all the beakers already spent with it (not counting the eureka boost). That way you can still change to a different one if an matter of urgency comes up, but research atech to up 50% and change wouldn't work.

 

[King Jason]

The main problem here is to avoid tech micromanagement. Civ4 was quite bad - due to SoD the highest difficulty levels were a big challenge, so players tried to get everything they could, including playing with things like science percentage to get optimal results in techs. It would be great if this can be avoided.

...why? Imo, this is the entire point of higher difficulties and the strategyies that spring from attempting to beat them. Production/beaker spillover micro. Chopping micro. Whipping micro. All of these things made the game more interesting. Well, Civ4 anyway, civ5 was easy as all hell and you could beat that game blind.

The A.I. doesn't play fair on Deity - which has always required the human to come up with it's own "cheats" to beat it. Micromanaging Eureka's seems like a fine addition to the higher level play. Of course, bothering with such a thing should be irrelevant on any difficult lower than the highest 2 or three.

In the end, you're still playing the Map and not necessarily gaming the system. If you start 4 tiles away from the coast and know your second city is going to be coastal, so you choose to research half of fishing before you continue about the rest of your research path, I see nothing wrong with that. That is something you wouldn't do if you had no coast at all, or if you started on the coast you might just complete fishing right away.

So your strategy is still shifting depending on your surroundings which is working exactly as intended.


For the flavor of it all, it still fits. An empire that starts close to the sea but not on the sea may ponder the wonders of what it means to settle those lands. Perhaps they've sent explorers, philosophers, surveyors, and scientists to investigate the merits of a coastal settlement. They have returned with the concepts of coastal living; fishing, sailing, and otherwise ruling the waves... concepts that cannot fully be realized until you as the leader take the risk of establishing that settlement; seeking out a way of life previously unknown to your people. The establishment of the city allows for all of the concepts and theories provided by your adventurers to be tested, and they have rung true! The waves are yours for the taking, if you desire master them further.

... Yea. You can "game" this system, and you can "RP" the system. I'm good with it.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

...why? Imo, this is the entire point of higher difficulties and the strategyies that spring from attempting to beat them. Production/beaker spillover micro. Chopping micro. Whipping micro. All of these things made the game more interesting. Well, Civ4 anyway, civ5 was easy as all hell and you could beat that game blind.

[...]

For the flavor of it all, it still fits. An empire that starts close to the sea but not on the sea may ponder the wonders of what it means to settle those lands. Perhaps they've sent explorers, philosophers, surveyors, and scientists to investigate the merits of a coastal settlement. They have returned with the concepts of coastal living; fishing, sailing, and otherwise ruling the waves... concepts that cannot fully be realized until you as the leader take the risk of establishing that settlement; seeking out a way of life previously unknown to your people. The establishment of the city allows for all of the concepts and theories provided by your adventurers to be tested, and they have rung true! The waves are yours for the taking, if you desire master them further.

Although I'd hate to bean-count overflow beakers, I like the way you put that so poetically.

Ideally, imo, strategy should come from macro-level decisions (where to settle, what to research and when, etc) and not from tedious micromanagement (counting beakers etc). The combat system with 1upt is a borderline case between the two; if the AI is competent enough, there is still the economic and technological component to war that has to be considered. If it's inept though, then it's just a game of rock-paper-scissors where you know in advance which the AI will choose, and will simply go through the motions to decimate them, making combat into a form of micromanagement (imo, Civ V was very close to this even in its updated shape).

@JosephC: Imo, your new solution is the best so far. The only downside is that the overflow beakers can go towards a tech that has nothing to do with the one you researched; but since that is already the case with regular overflow, it's practically a non-issue. Your solution eliminates the bonus that would otherwise be applied to the overlflow beakers, so I consider the issue to be solved if it were to be implemented. As to whether Firaxis has actually done it this way, we can only hope.

 

[JtW]

They could also do it so that the Eureka gives you 50% of the remaining beakers, so pre-researching would lessen its effect.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

They could also do it so that the Eureka gives you 50% of the remaining beakers, so pre-researching would lessen its effect.

But again that's an incentive to avoid researching certain techs. I prefer JosephC's solution, where you can research exactly as normal but receive full benefit from the Eurekas (and not an ounce more, at the other end).

EDIT: Now that I read what I just wrote, a different concern emerges: if there is no need to make any provisions for their discovery, might not the Eurekas become just arcade-like 'power-ups' that you mindlessly gather as you go about your business as usual? I suppose it's a trickier question than I'd envisioned... One can only hope that Firaxis have playtested their chosen approach extensively against all others before 'locking it in', so to speak.

 

[King Jason]

Well the game has clearly been designed with this in mind. So it's likely tuned with the concept that a good amount of the things you research will have been Eureka'd before you begin researching them in mind.

 

[rastak]

But again that's an incentive to avoid researching certain techs. I prefer JosephC's solution, where you can research exactly as normal but receive full benefit from the Eurekas (and not an ounce more, at the other end).

EDIT: Now that I read what I just wrote, a different concern emerges: if there is no need to make any provisions for their discovery, might not the Eurekas become just arcade-like 'power-ups' that you mindlessly gather as you go about your business as usual? I suppose it's a trickier question than I'd envisioned... One can only hope that Firaxis have playtested their chosen approach extensively against all others before 'locking it in', so to speak.

I don't know if it would become that way unless you were hell bent on making it so. For instance, unless I need some military now and decide to make 3 spearman, I'll probably not stop what I am doing to just get that eureka. In fact, I may forgo that eureka entirely and pick up the tech later when my science is flowing and it's quick to research even at full price. Everything depends on my situation. In some cases like stone nearby I'd grab 'em because it's quick. Only if there was a tech I really needed would I go WAY out of my way to do that and it would be driven by need for speed.

 

[Synth]

I don't know if it would become that way unless you were hell bent on making it so. For instance, unless I need some military now and decide to make 3 spearman, I'll probably not stop what I am doing to just get that eureka. In fact, I may forgo that eureka entirely and pick up the tech later when my science is flowing and it's quick to research even at full price. Everything depends on my situation. In some cases like stone nearby I'd grab 'em because it's quick. Only if there was a tech I really needed would I go WAY out of my way to do that and it would be driven by need for speed.

I totally agree! Especially 'cause we've only seend early game Eurekas, which seem relatively easy to get. We still don't know any Eurekas of late-game techs, and it would make sense to make the requirements bigger and bigger.

 

[Sporally]

I really hope you, Firaxis, will consider this issue with great care. I'm sure all good players will exploit on this if it isn't changed before October. We know you read up on some of the threads on civfanatics We're not pointing fingers here - we're just here to help you to help us fans getting a better game. If it isn't changed before release I'm afraid you'll just postpone the bitterness of admitting this system wasn't prefect from the beginning. The patch release or first expansion would surely address this issue - so why not change it now for better initial reviews The general idea of eureka moments are great though!

Another thing as mentioned earlier in this thread. The are arguing that this will change the way you play each game. I agreed on that to begin with. But if the eureka moment is the same for each tech each time (which I guess it would be) I'm afraid that potential could work in the exact opposite way. You know in what order to do what to get the eurekas flowing. Do this, build this, research that, do that, research that, build this, research that. Guess we can't say about that before the game is released. Dunno - maybe I just should try not being too pessimistic about this

For a future expansion eureka moments per tech / culture advancement could be implemented. Or maybe not exactly 2 for each advancement but 1-3 eurekas per advancement could be great. If the eureka requirements were made obscure until the advancement would become available for research this would make planning of executing the eureka on beforehand more difficult. An experienced player would need to do say up to 3 three things in order to be sure to get the eureka moment for the unavailable advancement. Therefore you would often choose not to deal with future possible eurekas. This would make the game less predictable and calculated.

Your thoughts on this?

 

[Ivan Hunger]

At least some of the eurekas seems to be outside of your control, such as finding a natural wonder for astrology. Sure, you can train some early scouts to increase your chances, but you still have to get lucky.

 

[Acken]

I dont mind the non retroactivity of eurekas and forcing you to plan your reseaech carefully to get the full benefit.

I even think it creates more things to think about and plan around each turn.

I dont really see where the problem is when a player doesnt get the full bonus because he missed the opportunity to do so.

That said if its streamlined with some of the ideas proposed here I could see why and wouldnt mind either.

 

[King Rad]

What I want to know is if "wasted" science from eurekas will carry over into the next tech you start researching. Say I have a queue set up to research Tech A first and then Tech B after that. Tech A costs 1000 science to research. If I have already invested 750 science into completing Tech A, then receive a 500 science eureka boost to it, will the 250 extra science I already invested in Tech A be refunded and used to further the progress of Tech B?

It's like when you find an ancient ruin, but the ruin gives you a free tech that you were only one turn away from researching yourself. I don't want eurekas to give players the same unsatisfied feeling.

I don't remember the specific article/interview, but I thought I read/saw something that indicated there is no carryover. I think this is consistent with the apparent intent that the eureka moment enhances your understanding of that specific technology. This would make sense, as getting a eureka with regard to a specific tech should not influence your ability to research something else. It also makes sense that something which provides a eureka moment to something you're already researching could cause you to finish that tech immediately (e.g. your suddenly having access to stone or the coast causes some things to suddenly come into focus that you didn't really understand before), so there would be no reason for it to only provide a percentage of the remaining tech research needed; and it fits with you almost had something and this new understanding simply completed it - frustrating perhaps, as was mentioned with getting a free tech in CiV when you're 1 turn away from completing it, but again somewhat realistic.

 

[Acken]

And you can predict it. Contrary to free techs from ruins.

 

[King Rad]

They could also do it so that the Eureka gives you 50% of the remaining beakers, so pre-researching would lessen its effect.

If you look at Quill18's video, at about 1.00 into his Part I video, you will see that the meeting with Roosevelt immediately completes writing research.

 

[OnceAKing]

I don't know I think there's a possibility of abuse however Eurekas will be theoretically happening with more and more progressive effort.

The impression I get is that as it becomes more advanced you have to be more purposeful in the Eureka moments.

Further there is always going to be opportunity cost. It will be about what you value more. That free fishing tech or a potential masonry tech from building a worker instead.

Further why study fishing prior to owning a coastal city?

The whole point of Eurekas was getting users out of the same path on the tech tree. Meaning, you may disregard fishing for a little while if you're currently landlocked.

I don't think there's anyway to prevent pre-learning the first 50% but that's 6 to 12 turns spent studying something you're absolutely NOT going to use until that settler is built and travels 6 turns to the coast. That's a ton of wasted early time researching.

That time would probably be better spent learning something else like hunting or animal husbandry and reaping the full benefits of that rather than timing fishing.


Also think about what path you may be on. Imagine you're the mongols and you've spawned next to horses. Imagine an animal husbandry Eureka for working that tile.
Now you'll want to study the rest of that rather than go for fishing or sailing.
Now you've got the settler built and you could go to the coast but there's another tile inland with even more horses. Now what do you do? You could go for diversifying and getting the coast or you could leverage your advantage in horses and go for that settlement.

All and all you may have more specialised early civs that might go at each other on the continent in rock vs scissors fashion.

 

[King Rad]

OnceAKing, I agree with you completely. I think it's going to be rare that a civ will have enough excess science to pre-research a tech they can/t currently or don't plan on using just so it will be completed should they get a eureka moment; and the eureka moments appear to be another aspect of encouraging players to develop their civs along different lines based on their starting location - which will control some of the early eureka moments. Like you, I also anticipate that the eureka moments will get tougher and/or require more specific actions to obtain as you start to progress through the tech and civic trees; actions that you won't take unless they are consistent with your planned direction of your civ.

 

[Sporally]

Well, I don´t say you will always do the same and of course you will not go for a coastal city if you never play to get that coastal city. Maybe you´re right they will be tougher the farther you get into the game.

On the other hand I also had a way I played Civ5 more or less every time. However, due to some local things like ressources and neighbours I never went the exact same path every single time. I don´t think that will be the problem but I´m afraid you will still go for the same 90 % of all eurekas / inspirations and more or less in the same order. Of course you also have those you can´t control like finding a natural wonder. But that is not important in this anyways. I still will choose more or less the same path. If you have say 2 - 3 different eurekas / inspirations that the game changes from game to game you are quite frankly forced to go another route each time in case you hace any interest in eurekas / inspirations. But going for deity I´m pretty sure you´ll have to master your eurekas / inspirations very well.

For a future expansion eureka moments per tech / culture advancement could be implemented. Or maybe not exactly 2 for each advancement but 1-3 eurekas per advancement could be great. If the eureka requirements were made obscure until the advancement would become available for research this would make planning of executing the eureka on beforehand more difficult. An experienced player would need to do say up to 3 three things in order to be sure to get the eureka moment for the unavailable advancement. Therefore you would often choose not to deal with future possible eurekas. This would make the game less predictable and calculated.

Coming to think about it I don´t think I would be a great idea to obscure the eureka / inspiration requitements untill you can research that particular tech / civic. If that was the case you would end up doing them totally random unless you remember all possible eurekas / inspirations and did them all before you knew what that particular game would require you to do. But the idea of 2 - 3 eurekas / inspirations for each tech / civic is still important for great and diversified games I think

 

[Happiness]

The issue of wasted Eureka science can be easily solved by making Eureka boost techs that are further down the tech tree such that the possibility of a Eureka boosting your current research is practically zero, unless you are focusing all your science on just one branch of the tree.

And if it does happen that a Eureka boosts your current research, then JosephC's 1st solution is the best: make it boost your current research by speeding it up 50% or 100%.

 

[gunnergoz]

I want the option which may deactivate Eureka

It's called Civ V.

 

[BrokenBokken]

I think this whole argument is rather moot. If you're researching everything to 50% and not completing it until turns later, you're going several turns without the benefit of a tech you could have. Civilization is all about snowballing. Every turn you can't build a district, or a wonder, or a building, is a turn your yields are behind the curve. There may occasionally be a situation where you KNOW you'll complete the Eureka before the tech would complete on its own... but it seems like a perfectly legitimate strategy to use that to your advantage and not gaming the system.

Secondly, carry over would be completely detrimental to the system. Not only would it entire kill the flavor, you could game it to essentially get Eurekas you couldn't complete or practically get a free tech. Your tech is 98% done. You get the Eureka. You apply it to another tech of near equal cost that you've all ready completed the Eureka for and you just got one for free. Or you can't get the Eureka for industrialization so you switch to that after the same situation. All of a sudden the map placement doesn't really matter for your tech advances because you can determine which Eureka affects which tech.

Finally, if this method would really speed up your tech by any substantial amount you'd have less turns to complete every Eureka. Meaning it would be less likely for you to game the system to hit every single one. If you insisted on getting every Eureka possible I'd expect there would be times where nearly every tech you can possibly research would be at 50% because you'd have created such a back log of objectives for you to complete. If the objectives aren't enough to create a backlog than this method isn't effective anyway, because you would've been able to complete them as you're teching normally. If I can complete an average of 1 Eureka per technology acquired this ordering and switching won't do much for me except in rare occasions. If you can't do 1 Eureka per technology required then you will eventually hit a wall and backlog.