Europa Europa Deluxe: European Empires Mod 1525-1800

[ArbitraryGuy]

How about 1453 so that the Ottomans have Constantinople?

And so that the 100 years war is over.

1450 is a rough estimate to give a nice, round number. 1453 will be the "real" starting date. Updated the first post to indicate this.

 

[Leif]

Ahh, I love playing with sweet Istanbul. (In Warlords the Ottomans are one of my favorite civilizations to play with)

I believe the model of five categories of civics should be used once more.

Power (Who and How many hold the keys to the kingdom)
Despotism: (Same as EE3) basically being a warlord, little accomplished without use of force, the leader has no bloodline, change of leaders is quite often a bloody endeavor thanks to the constant power squabble after a vacuum.
Absolute Monarchy: It's all you, little change from EE3 needed, high upkeep (King Louis comes to mind)
Feudal Monarchy :Vassals and you with the big shiny hat, I think we don't need to change this one around for it to work either.
Merchant Republic: The wealthy make all the rules, see Kleptocracy, trade policy is important, lots of money comes in, but some things (Courtrooms?) low upkeep. Autocratic, but not as much so as a monarchy.
Noble Republic: Powerful families (Dynasties) make the rules, tolerance is up a bit, a bit more generic early republic, more administrative than the merchant republic, more taxation than the merchant republic, more unity (less wealth driven backstabbery, still slightly autocratic)
Democratic Republic: The most enlightened govt. choice available, officials are voted in, has a strong and flexible constitution, etc.. medium upkeep, maybe more culture and science?

Law (What is the law of the land?)
Might makes right: because I said so..
Fundamentalist: Because god said so.. (EE3 copy)
Aristocratic: Because I'm a noble.. (+happy for castle, capital)
Wealth Driven: Because I'm rich.. (+happy for market)
State Driven: Because I AM THE LAW.. (+happy for army, barracks)
Constitutional: Because this is the established law of the land agreed upon by everyone. (+happy for city, + happy for courtroom)

Economy (How do things get made)
Disorganized: No law or guiding principle exists to form production.
Slave Labor: People are a commodity to be sold and bought, a large group of people do all the work and are considered less than human by those in power. (can inslave, can build slavery wonders, can force production)
Feudal Agriculture: People can own their own land, but they give a large amount of their crops and goods to the nobles. (EE3 copy)
Mercantilist: You can buy and sell all you want so long as you don't trade with other countries. Driving force behind early Imperialism. (EE3 copy)
Laissez-faire: Buy all, sell all. (EE3 copy)
Planned: (Not necessarily centrally planned, worker control also possible to represent the Paris model) Things are planned out to better provide for everyone in the long run. (med to high cost, Lowered city upkeep, + production)

Culture (What does the civilization value the most? God? Gold? Humanity?)
Survival: Perpetuation of the species, keeping a family, little else.
Social Order: Hierarchy makes thinking less necessary for a lot of people, things are well organized, everything has a place (mostly at the bottom). (EE3)
Prosperity: Who has the biggest pile of gold? (+ gold)
Jingoism: Country X Uber alles! (increase % of warlord)
Individuality: I am an island, I don't want to be bogged down by the masses ( a mix of liberty and consumerism)
Humanity: Human life is just as important as human afterlife (a mix of humanism and equality).

Religion (What is the role of the State in the Church [or the Church in the state?])
Contention: No formal religious legislation.
State Promotion: An alliance between church and state. (EE3 copy)
Religious Politics: The unification of Church and state. (EE3 copy)
Religious Crusade: The Church and state mobilized for War! Also the Inquisition is seeing frequent use. (EE3 mix)
Religious Tolerance: You can believe in whatever you please, but realize that (Religion X) is better (No unhappy for non-state religion, reduced benefits).
Secularism: Believe whatever, we don't care. (Wall of separation, no state religion, + science, Full benefits from all churches)

I see some points that could be changed, namely the similarities between constitutional law and social order. Maybe Constitutional law should just give happy to the largest cities and give a plus to science per specialist (Like in EE3)

I hope I've been of some help.

What does everyone think of my suggestions?

 

[manuchan]

first of all, congratulation for the EE3 Mod, this is definitely one of the best mods out there, not only because it is fun to play, but because it is historically accurate (at least at a fix point in time).
Now I really look forward playing this warlords adaptation, and here are some of my comments regarding the various things which have been discussed previously:
CIVLIST:
- Austria
This indeed should be included, but it should rather be called either "Habsburg Empire" or "Holy Roman Empire" as Austria was one of the many territories ruled by the Emperor.
- Burgundy
I find irrelevant add Burgundy, but then you would have to remove the Netherlands as they were part of that dukedom at that time. Additionaly, Burgundy dispeared at the death of its last duke, Charles le Temeraire (Charles the Rash) in 1477 when the king of France (Louis XI) and the
- Denmark
was at the head of the Kalmar Union including Sweden and Norway
- Bohemia
At that time, the Habsburg Emperor (Frederik III) was also king of Bohemia, so it would make no sense to have both states in 1453.
- England and France
no pb. there
- German Minors*
some played a major role later in history, I'll come back on that later in my post.
- Hanse Leauge
was called in english "The Hanseatic League"
not a worthy addition since it was never a state, I would rather replace them by the Teutonic Knights
- Hungary
important state of the Habsburg Empire
- Italian Minors*
not relevant either
- Lithuania
As mentioned in a previous post, should be put together with Poland into the Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth
- Netherlands
didn't exist as such until much later
- Ottoman Empire
a big player which needs to be properly set up so that it doesn't become to powerfull on the map you have choosen, as it doesn't include arabia and persia, this means on your map it would have to fight on only 1 front !
- Papal States
ok
- Poland
cf. comment about lituania
- Portugal
ok
- Prussia
important player much later in history but non existant at the starting time you choose.
- Russia
same comment as for the ottoman, needs to be well balanced as they will have mainly one front
- Russian Minors*
this is a good idea
- Scotland
interesting but that state never played an important role in history
- Spain
could be better to have still have it divided between Castille and Aragon at that time
- Sweden
cf. danemark
- Switzerland
A big part of it was part of the Habsburg Empire before some provinces revolted and formed the Swiss Confederation. In 1453 (the date at which you want to start) it was called "The Confederation of the VIII Cantons"
- Venice
ok

I am sure you want to take advantage of the Vassal System of Warlords, and I understand by choosing 1453 as a starting date, this means you want to look at the end of the middle age (with the fall of constantinople) and the birth of state-nations, it is of course very difficult to make an arbitrary choice and define which states have to be in and which one are out as you want to capture the dynamics of the whole period covered by your scenario. I would therefore suggest that instead of just listing the Civs to be included that you rather define big political forces, i.e. groups of states/nations with their vassals in 1453, those vassals becoming later on powerful enough to breakaway later on. And some kind of inimity between some states to be sure that enough actions (wars) happen !

My suggestion would be actually to rather start in 1500 with the following CIVs:
v stands for vassal of the number civ.
1- England
2v1- Scotland
3v1- Ireland
4- France
5- Spain
6- Portugal
7- Kingdom of Two Sicilies
8- Papal States
9- Venice
10- HRR
11v10- Hungary
12v10- Bohemia
13v10- Switzerland
14v10- Austria
15- Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth
16- Teutonic Order
17- Denmark
18- Sweden
19v18- Norway
20- Russia (Muscovy)
21- Ottoman Empire
22v21-Moldavia
23v21- Berber Emirates
24- Crimean Khanate

here is a good map to start with, it covers all the map you used for the vanilla civ version of EE3.
http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH_11_243.gif
it also shows the biggest cities in Europe at that time with the estimated population.

I'd be very happy to be of any help on this project.

 

[davbenbak]

Some other maps to concider are at www.euratlas.com Excellent maps of circa 1300,1400,1500,1600ad Europe.

Once again there is the balance of historical accuracy v.s. game play. Adding the Khanates probably a good idea to balance Russian and Ottoman expansion. Same reason for including Poland, Austria and Lithuiania. I would nix Bohemia as they were "in personal union" with Hungary and besides Austria, Poland and the German States need some room to grow. Still the problem of trying to be historically accurate to the rise of Prussia. Can they spread from the Baltic (Konigsberg) to Brandenburg (Berlin)? You really want to have Frederick as a leader. Again I say Savoy is much more interesting culturally and diplomatically than Switzland at this point in history and should be included intead.

Also remember that the spread of Protestantism and the wars that started makes you want to include certain key players even though they weren't technically around or atleast influential in 1453 or even 1500. Another reason to add Scotland as a religious and expansion balance to England. Not sure about the role Denmark played in the period though Copenhagen was an influential and strategic city. Seems like they were on the decline since the Union was able to break up. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. I know Sweden was a major player in the religious wars and Gustavos Adolphus was a dynamic leader and innovator.

If a huge map is used perhaps some vassal states can grow fast enough to throw off the yoke of oppression. It may for game play's sake though require that they be set up as independent states and let the game AI chose it's own vassals. They do seem rather quick to capitulate. Perhaps city razing should be turned off. Magdenburg was completely sacked and tens of thousands or citizen murdered yet the town survived. Though not geographically accurate perhaps north Africa should not be included at all. Just color over that area with sea tiles.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

Thanks for the comments everyone!

@Leif
Thank you for those civics ideas. I really like the concept of a catagory that captures the political power behind the state (e.g. aristocratic, theocratic, etc) and definitely have included a similar catagory in the civics. I also had to cut out civics that weren't applicable to the time period (e.g. no planned industrial economies ). Here are provisional catagories and corresponding civics:

Government Form: Feudal Monarchy, Absolute Monarchy, Loose Confederation, Centralized Oligarchy, Parliamentary Monarchy, Dictatorship

Political Power: Rule by Decree, Aristocracy, Plutocracy, Theocracy, Military Rule, Bureaucracy

Economic Base: Serf Agriculture, Peasant Agriculture, Mercantilism, Laissez-Faire, need two more

Social Value: Social Order, Religion, Prosperity, Humanism, need two more (maybe Freedom and Equality, a la French Revolution?)

Religion: State Promotion, Religious Politics, Inquisition, Religious Tolerance, Anti-Clericalism, Secularism

If I can adapts the civics screen scrolling mod, I will have more civics options present.

@manuchan
Thank you for your comments, that's a lot for me to mull over.

Let me explain some of my convoluted reasoning ...
At 1453, Bohemia was still indepentent (not Austrian until 1526) and I figured I could model union with Hungary through a strong alliance. Poland and Lithuania were not united until the late 1560s.

I was going to have Netherlands not start out in 1453, but rather appear as a "rebel civ" around 1580 (the 17 provinces revolt from Spain). Burgundy's low country cities will be inherited by Austria in an event (along with France getting back French parts). These events won't fire for human player (so human player can change the course of history).

I do think I will replace the Hanseatic Leauge with the Tuetonic Order, and have Prussia as a state start out as a Tuetonic Order vassal. An event will fire giving Prussia the city of Berlin (representing Brandenburg), and moving the capital there to represent the rise of Prussia. This depends on Berlin still being in German Minor hands. The German Minors and Italian Minors will be vassals of the Holy Roman Emperor (Austria -- which represents, here, the Hapsburg monarchy). I like the idea of removing the Swiss altogether (not a large impact as a state on European affiars) and replacing them with Savoy, which should probably start as a vassal of Austria (representing HRE) in 1453. Spain is reasonable unified in 1453, because it would become unified in ~20 turns anyway. Southern Italy and Sicily would start out as Spanish provinces (were Aragonese vassals).

I think starting in 1453 gives players more options and lee-way with how they want to take the course of history (many countires still independent). I think barbarian cities can represent the Khanates and temper Russian growth. For Kalmar Union, Denmark will just own Norway's cities and Sweden will be a vassal until its disintigration (by event if not by actions by player).

@davbenbak
See above for Savoy and the Rise of Prussia. City razing will be turned off. Note, most (if not basically all) cities will be already founded at the begining. Settlers will be able to be built, but probably won't be able to expand you too much. Naturally, some civs will have advantages and some disadvantages, but I think this is okay as long as they're not runaway advantages.

Thanks for the comments all .

 

[REDY]

I strongly supporting Bohemia as nation, you know why;D
I think the Poland will have many space to grow to the east and German states are German states, I dont know if one of them may invade any other state without help of powerful ally...I may found out some informations about Bohemian relationships because I am from here and I will glad to do it.....

 

[REDY]

Suggesting about Bohemia:

Possible leaders:
Ladislav Pohrobek 1453-1458 (I dont recommend he was thirteen and catholic and in this fact he can make nothing)
Jiří z Poděbrad 1458-1471 (recommended by me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_of_Podebrady)

Relationships:
Nobody realy friendly, maybe France and Poland a little. Near war with Hungary, Ottomans and Papal states. Annoyed main of German states and unfriendly all other catholics. However Jiří strenghtening it, by time slighly.

Economy:
After Husittes defending was traditional Bohemian power lowered. However Jiří z Poděbrad linked to great history and recovered land and Bohemia was Europe´s centre of silver mining. However another invades from evil Hungary´s Matyas supported by Pope always making danger but it were only maneuvers. In 1469 Jiří won and Matyas surrendered and promised supporting. However he didnt make it and in other years he invaded again. Jiří is winning againist him again, but suddenly died...After his dead Matyas wänted crown, but secured by weak Ladislaus Jagiellon, who resign on power and gave Moravia to Mattias. After Matthias´s dead he got also Hungarian crown...

Map of this war

 

[Leif]

Labor:
Trade union or craft guild
Is there to be slavery?
Maybe somehow a civic for when the state wants lots of a certain thing (such as mobilizing for war)


Social Values:
Nationalism
L, E, F (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity)

No planned economy ?;_;
Oh well, I'll end up with trade guilds, a dictatorship, and liberty equality and fraternity.

If you were to adapt the scrolling civic screen, what new categories would you include?

 

[Dom Pedro II]

You could maybe add some new leader traits that will change as new leaders emerge in the different countries.. so you could have Authoritarian, Progressive, etc.

Or you could even have leader traits that would come around with unambitious or incompetent leaders as well.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@REDY
Thanks for the info. I have a Bohemia question for you: In 1453, could Bohemia still be classified as "Hussite" Protestant? I would like an event to get rid of the Hussite religion, when should this happen? Thanks.

@Leif
I was thinking about a trade/craft guild civic, but was thinking that it may clash with Mercantilism. Maybe both a "Trade Guild" civic and a "State Monopoly/State Regulation" (representing mercantilism) civic? This would answer then, who controls the market: private monopolies or state monopolies, both as opposed to Laissez-Faire. I'm not sure about slavery in this period... can anybody inform me?

I think some kind of mobilization economy would be good, too.

Nationalism fits very nicely and will be used. I'd like to use some sort of liberté, égalité, fraternité civics but need a shorter name... maybe "Revolution" or perhaps just your "L, E, F" suggestion? Thank you for your ideas .

An extra civic option that I would much like to include would be "Military Doctrine" with civics such as Vassal Armies, Peasant Levy, Mercenary Armies, Standing Army, Admirality, etc...

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

You could maybe add some new leader traits that will change as new leaders emerge in the different countries.. so you could have Authoritarian, Progressive, etc.

Or you could even have leader traits that would come around with unambitious or incompetent leaders as well.

That's what I'd like to ultimately do... if I can figure out how

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

That's what I'd like to ultimately do... if I can figure out how

Actually, I just think I figured out an easy way to do it that kind of cheats, but is easy, nonetheless. In the CCP, Lopez has exposed leader trait changes to python. Instead of changing leaders, I change traits for events of leaders changing.

I assign every leader their own "trait," i.e. traits are no longer traits, they are leaders (trait names would then just be leader names). Then I just have to change some simple output stuff in the python screens and some text files, then... viola... changing leaders with python-based events! Of course, this doesn't change the leader's portrait in the diplomacy screen or foreign policy advisor, but I would just replace these portaits with pictures of national flags or coats of arms (pretty much constant over leaders). Then, the player now is playing as a nation, rather than as some leader.

 

[woodelf]

Cool, a reason to play Warlords.

Here's hoping you find time to finish this one.

 

[Leif]

I think Revolution, while being more vauge, is easier to explain than L, E, F. It took me several seconds to understand what Dict. of Prole. was in old EE3, L,E,F doesn't give you alot to work off of.

On the other hand, Revolutions are certainly not all in the name of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. I suppose L.E.F. (and all other civics) should be explained in the pedia entry.

 

[REDY]

@REDY
Thanks for the info. I have a Bohemia question for you: In 1453, could Bohemia still be classified as "Hussite" Protestant? I would like an event to get rid of the Hussite religion, when should this happen? Thanks.

Its hard to say that Bohemia was only Hussitian even before. There was fighting only for hussites tolerancy(religious freedom), not to get rid Catholic. And its hard to say that it ended, this religion is in todays Czech Republic as second strongest. (however now we are most godless maybe in the World)

Jiří z Poděbrad is called "Hussitian king". Czechia was Hussitian but Moravia, Silesia and Lusatia and German enclaves were mainly Catholic (as it was during hussites wars). He fighted in Hussitian wars as moderate Hussite.Jiří z Poděbrad made religion free and was trying bury the hatchet between Catholics and Hussites. But Pope didnt like him and called on him crusade. In the 1485 was signed "Kutnohorský religious peace" which grants religious freedom for Catholics and Hussites.

Moderate trying to re-catholization started as late as was voted Ferdinand I (1526) and Bohemia started be under Habsburgs rule. But real end of protestants and religion freedom in Bohemia was after unbelievable defeat on Battle of White Mountain in 1620, where army of Bohemia decisive lost againist same strong army of Holy Roman Empire, Catholic League and Spain. This battle was most shameful in Czech history, however they trusted in help of Dutch and English, who hadnt helped with supply or army.

 

[manuchan]

Thanks for considering my suggestions.
Another thing which is also worth considering is the move of Capital City, I realized through the different games I played the AI never build any Palace, and thus never move its capital. I believe it would be interesting also to eventually implement it as an event, for example during the time of the burgundy wars (which were going on at the time you wish to start) the capital of France was Tour and only later on was it permanently established to Paris.

 

[REDY]

If the Leif´s classification will be appled, so Bohemia should be:
Feudal Monarchy
Aristocratic
Feudal Agriculture
Hmm about religion Bohemia is hardest to say...Religious Tolerance but not with Islam...so maybe Religious Politics is better. But at all, Bohemia won most advanced management in Europe...

 

[Nachos]

can't wait!

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

@woodelf
I hope I get it done too...

@Leif
Yeah, I'm sure I'll have to explain a lot of the civics in the pedia. Thanks.

@manuchan
I didn't know that about Paris... I'll definitely consider it. Thank you.

@REDY
Thank you for the information

@Nachos
I can't wait either .

Thanks for the comments and suggestions everyone... every comment helps build a better mod!

 

[Leif]

Would you like me to write rough drafts of pedia entries?