European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[knigh+]

knigh+, you seem to know a lot about the Turks. Do you think you'd be able to write up a Turkish city list for me?

hmm... how many do you need? And I am still not sure about the context. There were too many Turkish empires and khanates in the 1000 year period you are considering. Besides, all city names I wrote before are outside your map.

How are you going to have Turks in your map? Can you mod things such that suddenly a bunch of Keshik warriors appear at the SE corner of the map sometime in the 11th century? Perhaps even using the tent-city thingy from the Mongol scenario of Warlords. I think that would be the only proper way of representing the sudden appearance of Turks in the middle east.

See the problem is there wasn't anything resembling a Turkish civ inside your map until 12th century. All of the civilized Turks (mosques, observatories, etc.) were in central asia. So are you sure about having Turks in this?

 

[Head Serf]

I would like if you could write a city list for the Seljuk/Rum Turks from the 12th to 14th Centuries, so before the battle of Constantinople and after the battle of Manzikert.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Here's a city list for Egypt. I looked at a variety of historical maps for the period. Some spelling differed between maps, and many maps were very blurry, so names may be incorrect. Fustat is the former name of Cairo... I put Cairo last on the city list anyhow, because it's a fairly short list...

Spoiler :

<Cities>
<City>Al-Fustat</City>
<City>Alexandria</City>
<City>Assuan</City>
<City>Damiette</City>
<City>Forama</City>
<City>Qolzum</City>
<City>Aydhab</City>
<City>Qift</City>
<City>Rosetta</City>
<City>Minieh</City>
<City>Suex</City>
<City>Gixeh</City>
<City>Siwa</City>
<City>Korga</City>
<City>Aidhab</City>
<City>Mansurah</City>
<City>Barca</City>
<City>Asyut</City>
<City>Kufra</City>
<City>Awjilah</City>
<City>Al-'Abasa</City>
<City>Al-Raydamiyya</City>
<City>Cairo</City>
</Cities>

 

[Drtad]

Dude, you used to be the most reasonable Armenian I knew, and quite knowledgeable. I understand your urge for Turk-bashing, but at least do it sensibly (i.e. with some research). Just as you would get annoyed when some uneducated Turkish nationalists claim Armenians never had independent kingdoms, your statement is annoyingly and blindly offensive.


From the top of my head, Urimchi (Urumqi), Kasghar, Yarkent, Beshbalik (Besbaliq), Semerkand, Kargalik, Tashkurgan, Tashkent, and possibly Buhara (Bukhara) and Merv (but these last two might count as Persian as well, Turks and Persians did not have a clear-cut cultural border on the central asia side) were some of the historical cities. If you need more, I advise you grab city names of today from Turkestan, as most of these were historical cities on the silk road. (Turkestan is the region including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirghizistan, Turkmenistan, and Sinkiang-Uigur province of China).

Of course from a different point of view, with your map and start date, you shouldn't even have Turks in the game (not simultaneously with Tatars at least). For more than half of your timeline, the only Turkic peoples in your map is Tatars, northeast corner of your map.

Yeah I admit, I do sometimes bash Turks for no apparant reason, but I was just saying that no major cities in Anatolia had actually been Turkish before. Actually, using cities from the Turkish homeland is a wonderful idea.

By the way, how about Alma Ata as a city?

 

[knigh+]

I would like if you could write a city list for the Seljuk/Rum Turks from the 12th to 14th Centuries, so before the battle of Constantinople and after the battle of Manzikert.

In that context Drtad's original comment is somewhat correct. There are actually many towns that did not exist before the Turks came. But they are not the important ones, as Drtad said.

I was just saying that no major cities in Anatolia had actually been Turkish before.

So do you want the Turkified names of the major Seljuk (ex-Byzantine) cities, or the smaller towns founded by Turks?

If the first one, do you mind having Nicea and Iconium on the Byzantine list and Iznik and Konya in Seljuk list (both capitals)? And many other similar overlaps between Byzantine and Armenian cities that were conquered by Seljuks...Or do you want to give some of these overlapping names to Seljuks, and leave the rest in the Armenian and Byzantine list.

Maybe the Turkish founded town list is a better idea, but then you'll have to wait a while because I can't say which town was founded by whom from the top of my head. Especially nowadays that I am quite busy with non-game matters.

 

[knigh+]

By the way, how about Alma Ata as a city?

Well, I don't recall any historical significance of it and I don't know how far back it goes in history...wikicheck...Yep, founded in 1854.

It is also difficult to figure out which cities in central asia are historical, as some changed names under Soviet and Chinese administrations.

By the way, if we go by who founded what city, Karakurum is Turkish, not Mongolian.

 

[Head Serf]

The big cities that the Seljuks captured and renamed from Armenia and Byzantium and the old Persian cities is good.

 

[Drtad]

"Turkified" names of former Byzantine/Armenian cities could be:
Izmir/Smyrna
Edirne/Adrianople
Trabzon/Trebizond
Izmit/Nicaea? unsure about that one
Rumkale/Hromkla

Other cities which are now under Turkish control, but I don't know their "Turkified" names are:

Erzurum
Bitlis
Sebasteia
Caesarea
Van
Aghtamar
Adana
Tarsus
Sis
Hrosos
Zeytoun
Ayas (also called Lajazzo)
Shabin Karahissar

 

[knigh+]

here it is. I didnt go too much east or west, to minimize overlap with Armenian and Byzantine cities.

Spoiler :

<Cities>
<City>Konya</City>
<City>Iznik</City>
<City>Karaman</City>
<City>Alaiye</City>
<City>Kayseri</City>
<City>Akshehir</City>
<City>Antalya</City>
<City>Aksaray</City>
<City>Karahisar</City>
<City>Divrigi</City>
<City>Nigde</City>
<City>Ankara</City>
<City>Kirshehir</City>
<City>Sivas</City>
<City>Chorum</City>
<City>Yozgat</City>
<City>Eskishehir</City>
<City>Bor</City>
<City>Dinar</City>
<City>Denizli</City>
<City>Kochisar</City>
<City>Polatli</City>
<City>Sogut</City>
</Cities>

let me know if you need more

 

[knigh+]

Izmit/Nicaea? unsure about that one
Rumkale/Hromkla

Izmit was Nicomedia
Nicaea became Iznik and was the first Seljuk Rum capital until it was lost in the first crusade. In my list I put it as the second for its importance. But the center of Seljuks in Anatolia was Konya, therefore I put it as capital.
I don't know where Rumkale is.

And the rest...

Erzurum - same
Bitlis - same
Sebasteia - Sivas
Caesarea - Kayseri
Van - same
Aghtamar - this is not a city, it is an island
Adana - same
Tarsus - same
Sis - I don't know
Hrosos - I don't know
Zeytoun - this looks Turkish, but I don't know of a town with this name
Ayas (also called Lajazzo) - same...but way too insignificant
Shabin Karahissar - Shebinkarahisar is obviously made up of Turkish words, it is one of the towns I mentioned were founded by Turks.

When you see words starting with ak- or kara- or ending with -sehir, -kale, or -hisar, know that those names are given by Turks.

 

[Drtad]

Izmit was Nicomedia
Nicaea became Iznik and was the first Seljuk Rum capital until it was lost in the first crusade. In my list I put it as the second for its importance. But the center of Seljuks in Anatolia was Konya, therefore I put it as capital.
I don't know where Rumkale is.

And the rest...

Erzurum - same
Bitlis - same
Sebasteia - Sivas
Caesarea - Kayseri
Van - same
Aghtamar - this is not a city, it is an island
Adana - same
Tarsus - same
Sis - I don't know
Hrosos - I don't know
Zeytoun - this looks Turkish, but I don't know of a town with this name
Ayas (also called Lajazzo) - same...but way too insignificant
Shabin Karahissar - Shebinkarahisar is obviously made up of Turkish words, it is one of the towns I mentioned were founded by Turks.

When you see words starting with ak- or kara- or ending with -sehir, -kale, or -hisar, know that those names are given by Turks.

Yeah, I was thinking of Nicomedia, not Nicaea. Thanks for all of those names, I did a bit of research and found the ones you didn't know. Hronkla/Rumkale both mean Roman castle, in Armenian and Turkish. Hromkla was major during Medieval times since it was the see of the Katholicoi of Armenia for a while. Sis is now Kozan in the Adana province. Zeytoun, as I remember, was destroyed in the Genocide, I put it in the list by accident, probably doesn't exist anymore. Ayas was an important trade center in Cilicia, and it was the city that Marco Polo began his jouneys in. It has probably deteriorated over time though. I was curious about ShebinKarahissar since it was where by great uncle, Andranik Ozanian (Pasha), was born. Aghtamar I put by accident again. Couldn't find anything on Hrosos, but I know it was a city in Cilicia during Medieval times.

 

[knigh+]

Turks

Leader: Alparslan - Agressive, Expansive - favors vassalage

UU: Akindji - copy Keshik exactly.

UB: kervansaray (caravanserai) - modified marketplace; more expensive, either adds a trade route, or increases trade route efficiency by some percentage.

 

[Drtad]

Turks

Leader: Alparslan - Agressive, Expansive - favors vassalage

UU: Akindji - copy Keshik exactly.

UB: kervansaray (caravanserai) - modified marketplace; more expensive, either adds a trade route, or increases trade route efficiency by some percentage.

For the leader, how about having more than one? Mehmed II would be easy since there is already an LH for him, and Osman would be another good choice. As for the UU I was thinking more along Ottoman lines like the Sipahi or Janissaries.

 

[knigh+]

Hronkla/Rumkale both mean Roman castle, in Armenian and Turkish. Hromkla was major during Medieval times since it was the see of the Katholicoi of Armenia for a while.

where is it?

Sis is now Kozan in the Adana province. Zeytoun, as I remember, was destroyed in the Genocide, I put it in the list by accident, probably doesn't exist anymore. Ayas was an important trade center in Cilicia, and it was the city that Marco Polo began his jouneys in. It has probably deteriorated over time though.

I thought you were talking about Ayas west of Ankara. I don't know what happened to one in Cilicia.

I was curious about ShebinKarahissar since it was where by great uncle, Andranik Ozanian (Pasha), was born. Aghtamar I put by accident again. Couldn't find anything on Hrosos, but I know it was a city in Cilicia during Medieval times.

You mean this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andranik_Toros_Ozanian

cool

Ok, I found some more info in Turkish sites. Apparently in Roman times there was a city (Nicopolis) a few km from today's location. Then it was renamed Mavrakastoron (black castle). Later in 6th century. Pecheneg and Cuman Turkic tribes settled in today's location, named their settlement Keygun (yep, Seljuks weren't the first Turks in Anatolia, but they were first in overwhelming numbers). These tribes later became Christians and assimilated into Byzantine Empire (culture-flip), and the town was known as Keugonia. In Seljuk times it was Keygune, but later became Karahisar (black castle). In 1473, Mehmed the conqueror modified the name into Sarkikarahisar (eastern black castle) to distinguish from Afyonkarahisar. In 1923 it became a provincial capital, in 1924 it was renamed Shebinkarahisar (shebin might have a meaning like dear or beloved - but I am not sure, it is Ottoman). In 1933 it was demoted to town status.

The town has several historic churches and mosques. It is home to an indigenous walnut species.

I am guessing due to its location it must have had some Armenian population since Roman times as well.

 

[knigh+]

For the leader, how about having more than one? Mehmed II would be easy since there is already an LH for him, and Osman would be another good choice. As for the UU I was thinking more along Ottoman lines like the Sipahi or Janissaries.

If we are talking Ottoman yes. But for the time period until 1500, I think Seljuks are more appropriate. Seljuks were around from 1040 to 1460s, whereas Ottomans from 1299 forward. Well, maybe a leader from each would be the best.

As for a second early Ottoman Sultan I would go with Beyazid (the Thunderbolt) rather than Osman. For a second alternative to a Seljuk Sultan, I'd go with Kilich Arslan, or Aladdin Keykubat.

Beyazid (Aggressive Imperialistic)
Osman (Aggressive Charismatic)
Kilich Arslan (Defensive Expansionist)
Aladdin Keykubat (Philosophical Imperialistic)


As for the UU in this period, Akindji was the name used for fast archer-cavalry Turks used in the offense. Just like the Mongols, they used composite bows. Sipahi concept came later (early 15th century I think) and replaced Akindji, which was soon obsoleted by gunpowder anyway. You can think of Sipahis as Turkish knights. Horse archer upgrades to knight, as Akindji upgrades to Sipahi.

 

[Fiend777Fits]

hey where are the uu's. other than that nice map.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

They've yet to be added. Next version should have them.

 

[Fiend777Fits]

are you gonna have unique buildings too?

 

[Craig_Sutter]

So far, no... this is just a Civ IV version, not for Warlords... but likely later after the vanilla version is developed.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Head Serf... I added to the Egyptian city list.