European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

Unfortunately I have found a small problem. The main scenarios have European Middle Ages 0.5 in the modpath. The Mod folder I uploaded was called European Middle Ages .5, so everyone has to rename the folder to 0.5. Sorry for any inconvenience.
 
Just did a brief viewing of the mod and a quick autoplay to see how balanced it is.

Just a couple of comments...

The Hanseatic Victory looks pretty good. I'd like to see the components spread out across a few more techs so that a victor has to have a more balanced tech progression. For instance, Syndic and the Diet of the Hansa could be moved to Representation... the Diet was a sort of Hansa Parliament, after all, and the Syndic, similar to a Secretary General... Representation seems a fitting tech. You could make them require Guilds as another prereq tech. As well, I'd consider spreading Hansa Memberships around a few more techs... for instance, I'd move one to Banking, and one to Weaving. The Bank Hansa Member would represent the various powerful banking houses such as the Fuggers. The Weaving Hansa Member would represent the Flemish monopolies on woolen goods... in fact, I'd make this one a true wonder, one only, and also have it produce a number of (2-6) "Textile" or "Cloth" tradeable resources (if it has access to Sheep) as well as the Hansa Member resource. There may be other techs the Hansa Memberships could be spread around to such as Pilotage or some other shipping related tech that might make sense. There are likely others, too. Of course, the bulk should still come with Guilds.

Similarly, I'd recommend some of the components in the New World spaceship victory be linked to techs that are not in such a direct line with eachother. Compass, Pilotage and Oceanic travel provide a straight line to most of the components of this victory... the AI's (and likely players going for a spaceship victory), tend to concentrate on this line of research, and let others lag, making a beeline up to the wonders and projects that are available by simply following this tech line. If some of the projects (or the techs that lead to them) also had another prereq tech, this would cause a bit more spreading of the tech research... would broaden it up a bit. Preservation, for instance, seems a likely candidate to be a prereq tech for some or all or the New World spaceship components or for the techs they require, as might Education for Pilotage, or certain components.

The Silk Road components seem more spread around the tech tree, although I've not really examined them as closely as the others.

All in all, though, the ideas seem good. I hope in the future, you look at biasing them a little towards certain civs, and away from others... perhaps by varying the costs of the components and wonders based upon geographical realities. There are probably a number of ways this could be done. Or by creating special techs of varying as prerequisites to building the components/wonders involved in addition to the ones that are the main prerequisites. For instance, the Hansa League project might require Baltic Hansa Tech or Western Europe Hansa Tech or Mediterranean Hansa Tech as prerequisites in addition to Banking tech... and the costs of these various techs would biased towards historical and geographical reality.

Anyhow, these are just a few thoughts... now on to more playing. I think I'm going to try to get a few different spaceship victories, and see how concentration on specific lines of tech to get those victories while ignoring most others works as a strategy.
 
I played a bit. I like the new changes to the map. I also like the new UU and LH art, it adds to the atmosphere. Lithuania didn't shoot to the top. Byzantium didn't crash. Tatarstan didn't go down. It was the Egyptians and the Turks that went to the bottom. The Egyptians got enveloped by barbarians, and the Arabs enveloped the Turks. The Moors were a Muslim powerhouse in Iberia and North Africa, first time I saw that, and it was welcome. Anyway, overall I like the new version.

PS: Envoys don't have the explore mission still.
 
Hey Everybody!

Great work on 0.5! I downloaded the new file and can't wait to browse the .xml. (Maybe I will finally get around to playing, also!!) I've been out of town a couple days, but I have been working on building ideas all week. I wanted to wait and compare to the new BuildingInfos in 0.5 before I posted - so I will get my comments up shortly!

Some notes on the to-do list: I reworked a lot of the AI diplomacy in my personal mod, and would be happy to help tweak the xml values if you need a hand. Also, I can help with 2D graphics and buttons. But first, the buildings!

More from me later today. -Laina
 
Yeah, 2d graphics should be one of the goals for the next version. There are a lot of vanilla buttons used over and over and the same goes for flags. There are flags needed.
 
Just a minor observation. Damascus's location on the large map doesn't seem right. It should be farther inland. Antioch or Tripoli would be better cities for that location.
 
I played a game – quick speed, small map, Noble, Otto I (Germany), I didn’t play the scenario, and achieved a Silk Route victory – and can now contribute more specific ideas. I’ve broken my notes into topics and I will post them over the next few days so we can have an effective exchange of ideas. First, the buildings!

BUILDINGS - General Notes
It's a good start, but overall, I think the buildings need a good, thorough re-working. Some buildings work very nicely, but others have redundant effects, are too powerful, or are too weak or cheap. I also think we need more variety - I thought city specialization was very difficult with the current menu of buildings.

@Head Serf – If you are not working on buildings at the moment, I’d like to volunteer to temporarily take charge of the buildings XML. I could clean up the code and make changes based on our group consensus, then turn it back over to you.

Important: I think the base levels of health and happiness in HandicapInfo.xml are too high. I had Judaism as my religion (no temples), and had no unhappiness problems. (!!!) I would like to suggest 2 health/4 happy for settler and chieftain, 1/3 for warlord and noble, 0/2 for prince and monarch, -1/1 for emperor and immortal, and -2/0 for deity. The Dark Ages were a very unhealthy time to live, and healthiness only improved marginally in the High Middle Ages. I think these decreased levels will make the game more challenging, more historically accurate, and make the buildings more important.

Also, I was awash in gold. I ran 80%-90% science the entire game, and had thousands to spare. Although the lack of buildings contributed to this, I think the many extra trade routes and gold modifiers need to be toned down.

New Building Ideas
  • Town Square: req'd for Fair, Minstrel’s Stage, Market, Gallows; -2 food, -1 hammer (to simulate land displacement)
  • Belfry: +1 influence, +5% hammers
  • Astrologer’s Tower: +10% science, +1 influence
  • Print Shop: +10% science, +5% influence; +10% great people birth rate; -1 happy
  • Minstrel’s Stage: requires Town Square; +1 happy
  • Tavern: requires grain; +1 happy, +10% gold, +1 health; -5% hammers
  • Armory: requires Keep, requires copper or iron; +1xp for land units, +10% military production
  • Apothecary: +1 health, +10% science
  • Public Bathhouse: +1 health
  • Leper’s Quarantine: +1 health; -3 gold
  • Vintner’s Cellar: requires Tavern; +1 health from wine
  • Gallows: requires Town Square; -10% city maintenance, +1 influence; -1 happy
  • World Wonder - La Sorbonne: (founded in 1257 by Robert de Sorbon), +25% science, +10% great people birth rate, +8 infl (host city only)
Building Revisions
  • Remove Sewers: sewers certainly existed, but whether they promoted health or not is debatable - (some sewer history here.
  • Hospice: --> Infirmary: requires Monastery (any); +1 health
  • Medieval Hospital: --> +2 health
  • University --> requires 3 librararies; +25% science, +10% GPBR
  • Keep --> +1xp land, +10% city defense
  • Castle: --> requires Keep and Walls, +50% city defense, +3 infl, -1 health
  • Walls (3): These are a bit overpowered –how about +2 xp each, and +20% defense each? Walls#3 could require copper or iron.
  • Fair: --> requires Town Square; +10% gold, -5% hammers, +1 happy from sugar, cotton, saffron
  • Harbor: --> +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield
  • Guildhall: --> +10% gold, +10% hammers, +2 influence
  • Inn: --> +1 trade route, +10% trade route yield

Naturally, cost and tech tree placement will need to be worked out, but I thought I’d wait to see how everybody else felt about a buildings overhaul. :)

Building Errors? (These may not be errors, but thought I’d point them out just in case.)
Spoiler :
  • Chancery: <bNoLimit>1</bNoLimit> in BuildingClassInfos allows you to move the chancery around (sort of confusing in-game). Chancery has no civ-wide # of courthouses requirement.
  • University – Does not provide any science increase
  • No Judaism buildings – no temple, monastery, cathedral, shrine, holy city wonder. (Also, no Jewish missionaries.)
  • Monasteries don’t build missionaries?
  • Dome of the Rock - <HolyCity>RELIGION_JUDAISM</HolyCity> but <PrereqReligion>RELIGION_ISLAM</PrereqReligion>.
  • Reliquary / Piece of the True Cross nearly identical - (redundant).
  • Arawak / Iroquois wonders – no prereq relationship
Sorry for the long post - any thoughts? -Laina
 
I tend to agree that the buildings need a bit of work. For one thing, I really think that we need a tech providing an Influence (culture) slider. We could then add a happiness or influence differential to certain buildings depending on the &#37; the slider is at (similar to Colloseum and Theatre in Vanilla Civ). I would recommend, since we are using influence, that buildings that exert power and influence such as Courts or Castles, or other suitable buildings, have happiness effects related to the slider.

Also, I feel we need some sort of future tech, as I believe that part of the abundance of money at end game is a result of running out of research options once all techs have been gone through.
 
One more note about the Hanseatic League Memberships National Wonders.

I would give some, or all or them, a resource requirement based upon resources commonly traded by the league members... items extensively traded by the league each of which could by applied to one of the Memberships are beeswax (honey), sheep (wool), gold/silver (banking), amber, grain, salt (very important in the leagues formation) and possibily others. Each of the Memberships would have one or the others of these as prerequisites to being built.

Additionally, I think that a Guildhall is a reasonable prerequisite building for these National Wonders, and possibily a Bank for one based on the Banking Tech.


And again, I think that some of the Memberships should come at different techs other than Guilds... I've mentioned that in a previous post.

I played one game through to a Hanseatic Victory... it was in mid-1300's. I'm going to do much more testing to see if this is usual or not.
 
@Craig Sutter re: Influence Slider causes happiness from court/castle, etc. - great idea!

I also like your ideas about the Hanseatic League Memberships. Spreading them out over the tech tree and having resource and building prereqs would force the player to use a little strategy. Also, only the most resource-rich nations would be able to build all of them. This would allow us to vary the names also.

I didn't run out of techs in my game, but I agree that it is unrealistic to be researching nothing. Future tech could add influence and gold (instead of health and happiness).

-Laina
 
Well, apparently I'm going to have more time than I thought! Today is the coldest day in the history of my county at a temperature of -2 F, or -18 F windchill, so school was canceled.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/2 :
The Hanseatic Victory looks pretty good. I'd like to see the components spread out across a few more techs so that a victor has to have a more balanced tech progression. For instance, Syndic and the Diet of the Hansa could be moved to Representation... the Diet was a sort of Hansa Parliament, after all, and the Syndic, similar to a Secretary General... Representation seems a fitting tech. You could make them require Guilds as another prereq tech. As well, I'd consider spreading Hansa Memberships around a few more techs... for instance, I'd move one to Banking, and one to Weaving. The Bank Hansa Member would represent the various powerful banking houses such as the Fuggers. The Weaving Hansa Member would represent the Flemish monopolies on woolen goods... in fact, I'd make this one a true wonder, one only, and also have it produce a number of (2-6) "Textile" or "Cloth" tradeable resources (if it has access to Sheep) as well as the Hansa Member resource. There may be other techs the Hansa Memberships could be spread around to such as Pilotage or some other shipping related tech that might make sense. There are likely others, too. Of course, the bulk should still come with Guilds.
Good ideas, I see what you mean about really moving the tech requirements around.

@ Drtad 2/2 :
PS: Envoys don't have the explore mission still.
No idea as to why it isn't working, but I'll keep looking.

@ Craig Sutter 2/3 :
Cog is still using the Caravel graphics, although I'm pretty certain you intended to use the Kogge graphic created in these forums.
It works fine in my game. :confused: And it should only have two art files in the Cog art folder.
Cog.JPG


@ lshockley 2/3 :
Some notes on the to-do list: I reworked a lot of the AI diplomacy in my personal mod, and would be happy to help tweak the xml values if you need a hand. Also, I can help with 2D graphics and buttons. But first, the buildings!
I think we should kind of figure out where we're going with the AI leader values first, but once we get there, all help is welcome. And I'm glad you brought up the 2d art, it's been very much forgotten for a long time.

@ Drtad 2/3 :
Just a minor observation. Damascus's location on the large map doesn't seem right. It should be farther inland. Antioch or Tripoli would be better cities for that location.
I guess I'll move Damascus then (I think it's much more important than Tripoli or Antioch).

@ lshockley 2/4
@Head Serf – If you are not working on buildings at the moment, I’d like to volunteer to temporarily take charge of the buildings XML. I could clean up the code and make changes based on our group consensus, then turn it back over to you.
Sure. that'd be great.
I think the base levels of health and happiness in HandicapInfo.xml are too high. I had Judaism as my religion (no temples), and had no unhappiness problems. (!!!) I would like to suggest 2 health/4 happy for settler and chieftain, 1/3 for warlord and noble, 0/2 for prince and monarch, -1/1 for emperor and immortal, and -2/0 for deity. The Dark Ages were a very unhealthy time to live, and healthiness only improved marginally in the High Middle Ages. I think these decreased levels will make the game more challenging, more historically accurate, and make the buildings more important.
If we remove the sewers building and reduce hospitals, I'm worried that health will be near impossible to control, so I'll have to do some testing to see if this would work well.
Town Square: req'd for Fair, Minstrel’s Stage, Market, Gallows; -2 food, -1 hammer (to simulate land displacement)
Belfry: +1 influence, +5% hammers
Astrologer’s Tower: +10% science, +1 influence
Print Shop: +10% science, +5% influence; +10% great people birth rate; -1 happy
Minstrel’s Stage: requires Town Square; +1 happy
Tavern: requires grain; +1 happy, +10% gold, +1 health; -5% hammers
Armory: requires Keep, requires copper or iron; +1xp for land units, +10% military production
Apothecary: +1 health, +10% science
Public Bathhouse: +1 health
Leper’s Quarantine: +1 health; -3 gold
Vintner’s Cellar: requires Tavern; +1 health from wine
Gallows: requires Town Square; -10% city maintenance, +1 influence; -1 happy
World Wonder - La Sorbonne: (founded in 1257 by Robert de Sorbon), +25% science, +10% great people birth rate, +8 infl (host city only)
Seems good, here are some of my thoughts: Gallows seems like a building no one would ever want to build! The small 10% city maintenance seems neglegable compared to -1 happiness. Maybe -25% maintenence? Vintner's Cellar, maybe should provide +1 happiness from wine also? La Sorbonne, is that +25% in that city or all cities? Either way it seems underpowered or overpowered.

For your recomendations for the current buildings, they all sound good. And fortified walls should already require copper...

Chancery: <bNoLimit>1</bNoLimit> in BuildingClassInfos allows you to move the chancery around (sort of confusing in-game). Chancery has no civ-wide # of courthouses requirement.
University – Does not provide any science increase
No Judaism buildings – no temple, monastery, cathedral, shrine, holy city wonder. (Also, no Jewish missionaries.)
Monasteries don’t build missionaries?
Dome of the Rock - <HolyCity>RELIGION_JUDAISM</HolyCity> but <PrereqReligion>RELIGION_ISLAM</PrereqReligion>.
Reliquary / Piece of the True Cross nearly identical - (redundant).
Arawak / Iroquois wonders – no prereq relationship
I'm glad you found that little bug with the Chancery, hr_oskar's left little bits of messy code and such. Just checked the university, I can't believe I didn't notice that. Judaism was supposed to be a "weaker" religion, one to be trampled on, along with Paganism, by the big three. And Judaism has never really been very interested with people converting to their religion. Missionaries no longer have a building requirement, that change was made long before I arrived, does anyone who was here then know why? Dome of the Rock shouldn't have the islam requirement. Reliquary needs to be redone, for instance, why would a Muslim nation want to use their Great Saint to build a building that provides Christian relics? The Arawak and Iriquois should be alone, the Arawak were essentially conquered upon arrival, and the Iriquois were too far inland and inaccesable for a realistic conquest at the time of the mod.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/4 :
I tend to agree that the buildings need a bit of work. For one thing, I really think that we need a tech providing an Influence (culture) slider. We could then add a happiness or influence differential to certain buildings depending on the % the slider is at (similar to Colloseum and Theatre in Vanilla Civ). I would recommend, since we are using influence, that buildings that exert power and influence such as Courts or Castles, or other suitable buildings, have happiness effects related to the slider.
All good recomendations, I can't believe I forgot about the culture slider!
 
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