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European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Head Serf, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    More thoughts on Compass... perhaps it should be move to the next cost level, along with Gunpowder and those others... Where Compass now is, we could add another tech, Cartography, and perhaps distribute a couple of the wonders and benefits between the two.
     
  2. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Maybe to get exploration victory, you should have a lot of components, like this: School of Navigation
    Voyage to Cape of Good Hope
    Campaigns of Afonso D'Albequerque
    African Colony
    Indonesian Colony
    S. E. Asian Colony
    New World Voyage

    Just brainstorming.

    By the way, Head Serf, Amra has a Basil II Bulgaroctonos animated LH, and I think C. Roland has made a Charlemagne LH.
     
  3. tonedog

    tonedog Chieftain

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    couple of questions

    does this work with warlords?
    would i be right in saying u must use the map that comes with this mod? i prefer using the biggest maps possible
     
  4. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    This is only for Vanilla 1.61, and you can use whatever map you want I guess.
     
  5. jefmart1

    jefmart1 Chieftain

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    How come I always found Judaism in a random game. It also happens to be the least useful religion so that is very annoying...
     
  6. jefmart1

    jefmart1 Chieftain

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    Yet another thought on technologies...

    Perhaps Notre Dame should be moved to Music and another wonder added to Architecture? and also a Great Lord gotten by the first to Music? It seems to be a worthless dead end tech at this point...

    I agree with Craig on the Compass and other wonders.
     
  7. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    Just a thought on resources...

    In previous versions of the mod, I think prior to .3, resources were cost cutters rather than requirements for units. For instance, knights, rather than requiring iron or horses, had their costs cut by 25% each, respectively. I really really liked this method as opposed to the all or nothing resource approach... I don't know why it was changed back to the vanilla game, but could we revisit this idea again, at least have it up for discussion.

    My 2 cents...
     
  8. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    True, I liked the old system better, all the civs should have access to all the units, but some can just create more, faster. And some thoughts on the map, I think Cilicia should be made more desirable for settlement, it was a very fertile and a very productive region in terms of iron and copper and gold and cows.
     
  9. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    After some play testing...

    -we may have to look at some unit costs. For one, my values for the naval units are a little off, I think, especially for the later period units. When the highest level units routinely only take 1 turn to build, I think they are undervalued. I propose these values (subject to subsequent playtesting)... longship, dromon(or lateen galley), galley and trireme be unchanged. Cog, Medieval Galley and Medieval Trireme be set at 60. Caravel should be 80. Carrak and Galleas should be 100. Galleon should be 110. (I hope I've not forgotten any).

    - handgunner has iron and copper as prerequisites... in the previous thread, when hoskar and I had discussed this, I think that we decided iron or copper was applicable. Antique firearms used either. Also, I think most cannon were bronze, so you might consider cannon resource change to copper. Also, Arquebuser needs a resource requirement... this was missed. I ought to be the same as for handgunner, I think.

    Techs seem to be working out ok, but the AI's seem to make a b-line towards certain tech (I soppose the look at the wonders that come with them). I think we need to spread the benefits of the techs around a bit more, so the AIs don't make all the same choices for research paths. I suppose this will come along when we develope the AIs in more detail, as well. We may have to adjust the tech tree a little to, to better reflect a historical timeline. I'm nitpicking a bit, but I like that a historically accurate tech research path should lead to techs arriving at roughly their historical time period. For instance, in my games ship-building comes about 100 years too early, so I'd like that shifted up to the next cost level. This may involve a bit of shuffling of the tech tree. All this may need to await a bit more polishing of buildings and units to get a good grasp of how the research goes. Anyhow, marathon, the techs and times work out pretty well, except for minor differences (as noted previously). In normal speed, the early techs end up coming way to early, so they may need to be adjusted up in cost, while the later ones may need to be adjusted down to compensate. Anyhow, this should likely await a bit more play testing and polishing of the mod.

    That's it for now.
     
  10. Head Serf

    Head Serf Chieftain

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    Well, I'm finally back from my absense. This week I'll write up the list of civilizations and start getting to work on re-working the wonder and building system, which as Craig has said, is not exactly in line with the historical timeline.
     
  11. Head Serf

    Head Serf Chieftain

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    Well, here's the list so far of civilizations. As you can see I grouped several civilizations together, such as the Anglo-Saxons and the Saxons, because of their similarities and such. If you have any more civs you'd like added, just tell me.

    1. England
    2. Saxony (Anglo-Saxony)
    3. Welsh
    4. Normans
    5. Scottish
    6. Ireland
    7. France (Franks)
    8. Germany (German Kingdoms)
    9. Goths
    10. Crusaders (Teutonic Knights, Templars, Hospitallers)
    11. Spain
    12. Portugal
    13. Italian States (General Italian Kingdoms)
    14. Venice
    15. Papal States
    16. Vikings (Scandinavian Kingdoms)
    17. Lithuania
    18. Poland
    19. Russia (Kievan Rus)
    20. Hungary
    21. Byzantines (East Roman Empire)
    22. Roman Empire
    23. Slavs
    24. Armenia
    25. Arabia
    26. Egypt
    27. Turks
    28. Moors (Berbers)
    29. Persia
    30. Tatars
    31. Mongols
    32. Bulgars
    33. Khazars
     
  12. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Chieftain

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    I would like to see the Teutonic Knights separated out from the other Crusaders as they are the only one of the three that existed as real country.
     
  13. Ambreville

    Ambreville Chieftain

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    Few questions -- when you mention Saxony (Anglo-Saxons), are you referring to a place east of the Rhine or a place in England? In the former case, there would be no "anglo-" since the Angle tribes came to England from someplace closer to modern Netherlands or Denmark IIRC. If so, why include Anglo-Saxons separately from the main English CIV (of for that matter the Germans?)

    Goths -- are these Wisigoths or Ostrogoths? In medieval times Wisigoths were part of the Spanish and French people. Ostrogoths were part of the Italian and French People, just like Franks were part of the French and German people. Why include a separate Goth entry then?

    Italian Kingdoms? What kingdoms are these? Are you referring to the Northern Italian city states (basically old Lombardy) or the Kingdom of Sicily-Naples? The latter is a Norman kingdom separate from the rest of Italy. It survived until the 1800's. The former are pretty much independent City States loosely allied around the Lombard League (at least most of them, since some were actually allied to the Papacy). Technically, they were part of the Holy Roman Empire, except for Venice which was an independent republic.

    German Kingdoms -- do you mean the old Germanic tribes or the Holy Roman Empire? Are you including Bohemia, Brandenburg, and Poland as part of the HRE?

    Romans -- as opposed to Byzantines of Constantinople, in medieval times these would be part of the three main Italian entities (Lombardy, Papacy, and Kingdom of Sicily-Naples), just like Goths would. Why include them separately then?

    Berbers of North Africa were not Moors, at least initially. In Spain, Muslims were known as Saracens (Moroccans were pretty much separate from the rest of the Muslim North Africa). Moors were further east on the Coast of North Africa. How far south does your map go? Should you contend with the Malian empire southeast of Morocco?

    Crusaders -- are your referring to the Kingdom of Jerusalem per se?
     
  14. Ambreville

    Ambreville Chieftain

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    Yes, but in Prussia only. In the Levant, they were part of the crusading forces and not a separate nation there.
     
  15. Ambreville

    Ambreville Chieftain

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    Normans -- in medieval times, the Duchy of Normandy was a French vassal. It later belonged to the Kingdom of England, although technically it remained a French Vassal. Why include them as a separate CIV?

    Spain -- since you seem to have a goal to reflect historical minutia, Spain could be divided along its original (non-Muslim) kingdoms -- Castilla, Aragon, and Navarra. Early on, Portugal did not even exist as a separate entity. It was a Muslim conquest until recaptured by Castillian and French troops.

    Slavs -- since you have Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, etc... why include a generic "Slav" CIV??? If you going that route, then you might want to include Magyars (the ones that moved to Finland).

    General question -- does your scenario start essentially as a 6th century setting or is it more inspired from the later medieval European makeup? In the former case, it makes more sense to have all the barbarian tribes as opposed to the more modern people (French, English, Italians, Germans, etc).
     
  16. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Magyars are Hungarians.
     
  17. Ambreville

    Ambreville Chieftain

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    Yes -- but I'm talking about the ones who settled in Finland.
     
  18. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    Don't get the main mod mixed up with those civs provided for scenario makers.

    As a for instance, say I wish to duplicate the Norman Conquest of England... I really can't use the English as one of my civs. That's a post conquest civilization. The Normans would be more appropriate. But Normans vs post-Conquest English is essentially Normans vs Normans, so I need an Anglo-Saxon civ to represent Harold Godwinson and co. So in such a case, both an Anglo-saxon and Norman Civilization is needed, and an English civ just doesn't fit the bill (and actually, would be more appropriate as the Normans than as the natives, oddly enough).

    Similarly, if I want a 500 AD scenario with the Romano-Britains against Anglo-Saxons, than I definetely want to see some sort of West Roman rump civilization included.

    Normans are included as a seperate civ from France as they weren't French, but a nobility transplanted from Danish raiders, Rollo the Viking. They went on to many conquests divorced from the French crown such as Sicily and Naples, and England. They adopted French culture and language, however, the Norman knight, with his distinctive head gear, was different from the French, and the far reaching overseas ventures of the civ are more reminiscent of their Viking forebearers than the French.

    Many other duplications have been alluded to, as well. The Anglo-saxons came from Saxony, Friesia and the Jutland peninsula. The saxons, named Wessex, Essex and Sussex (plus others) were from Frisia and Saxony (the Frisians, themselves, were essentially Saxons migrating there during the Germanic migrations). The Jutes, from Jutland, went to Kent and the Isle of Wyte (sic.). The Angles did east Anglia, Mercia and Northumbria, to name a few. The were from the Southern Jutland peninsula and Pomerania. These were all Teutonic peoples with similar language and culture and origins. Any distinctiveness they had pre-invasion was lost when the petty kingdoms in England were united, so treating them as the Anglo-Saxon civilization makes sense, even in the context of German Saxony, where the Saxons were absorbed by the Frankish Empire (to come out of that process as the Holy Roman Empire led by Otto I of Saxony) to later become an essentially German Civ. For the time period, 500-800 AD representing Anglo-Saxons and Saxony with the same UU's and similar leaders makes sense.

    The Visigothic Kingdom in Spain lasted quite some time into this scenario. That being said, it might possibly be included amongst the catch all of Germanic peoples.

    I kind of agree that there should be a civ seperate from the Berbers to represent muslim Spain.

    Anyhow, the idea of the mod seems to be to represent 16-18 civs in the main scenario that best cover the characteristics of the main civ actors during that period. Granted, almost no particular civ lasted throughout the whole of that period, unchanged (except for the Byzantines). So France will have to, in the mod scenario, stand in for the earlier Franks, England for both pre and post conquest island inhabitants, Italian states as an amalgam of later northern Italian city states (including Venice and the Papal States in the mod scenario), Spain for its sub-kingdoms, Germany for the East Frankish/Saxon Holy Roman Empire, and so forth.

    The main mod is one thing, but civs included as extras are essential to scenario makers, and need to cover a lot more specific civs then the general mod. That's why there are Anglo-Saxons and English, and why there seems to be some duplication.

    The mod runs from 500-1500 AD. I personally think that it makes more sense to call civs by the names of nations that they will later morph into. By 1500, there are no Lombards, nor Franks, nor Anglo-Saxons... so I'd rather play them as the Italian States, France and English... how they end up. Historical accuracy suffers somewhat... as I mentioned, the Anglo-Saxons are definetely not the English, in civ terms, they lost, but historical accuracy is always going to suffer either way you go. So if you're going to be inaccurate, you should at least be consistantly so... all late medieval or all migration period.

    I reiterate, though, don't get too wrapped up in the 30 civs or so that will be chosen. If you have arguements about inclusions for historical reasons, then I'd be most concerned about the 16-18 of the main mod. The others are meant to cover more specific scenarios. Including them doesn't affect or detract from the main mod in any way. They don't necessarily have to balance with the main mod scenarios civs, and can be inconsistant and duplicate them somewhat. Many of them will actually not be seperate from the main civs, but will be in the form, rather, of leader options. This is specifically for those civs that Head Serf mentions with (...) around the sub-civs. Vikings will include, I hope, leader heads for Canute, Olaf, and Hakkon, for instance, that can be used for seperate Denmark, Norway and others. But an actual civ is not needed for each of these seperately, just leader head options. Similarly for France, Franks... a Charlemagne leader head will serve adequately for both and if having Charlemagne as a French leader bothers you, then don't choose him when you play the mod, and if you make your own scenario, don't put him as the French leader.

    I've gone on longer than I intended, but I want people to be aware that there are two communities of individuals that this mod addresses... those who will play it as is, and those who wish to make scenarios and play them. Both can be satisfied by inclusion of additional, non-basic mod civs. As I said, any large arguements about the civs included should address the basic mod, not those included for scenario makers.

    Note: on rereading this post, I find I say "you" a lot. By you, I don't mean any specific poster, but the general "you" as referencing people playing the mod.
     
  19. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    Just a couple of possible wonders:

    The Cinque Ports...

    Available with shipbuilding. Requires 5 dockyards. Gives +4 exp to naval units built in dockyards located on same continent as the wonder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports

    A national wonder:

    Royal Naval Yard... available with shipbuilding. Requires 3 dockyards. Gives +4 experience to naval units built in city with wonder.

    These would make Shipbuilding a very valuable tech, so these wonders, or the Venetian Arsenal might better be placed elsewear (maybe the Venetian Arsenal to Guilds?). The benefits may have to be adjusted as they're right off of the top of my head at the moment.

    The reason I add them is that, to my mind, naval experience is very hard to come by as opposed to land units... there's not as much combat. Therefore, the exp boost from these couple of wonders will allow for the more higher level promotions to at least be possible.

    Head Serf, a question for you:

    This also brings to mind... some buildings give xp specifically to Naval Units... when the naval unit category was replaced with Oared and Sailing Ship classes, would the xp benefits of dockyard, for instance, have also been changed? If naught, then those building have to have their effects changed to reflect the unit class changes.
     
  20. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Chieftain

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    I'm trying to think of a Wonder to replace the Magna Carta. It happens way too early in the mod as opposed to its historical occurance. Perhaps "the Althing"? I know its very civ specific, but no more so, I suppose, than the Magna Carta, and makes sense in allowing switching amongst a wide variety of government civics, which is what the wonder is supposed to allow.
     

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