Craig_Sutter
Deity
There is going to more than one spaceship victory... the Hanseatic Victory is one, as well as a Silk Route Monopoly one...
European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection
- Thread starter Head Serf
- Start date
Arne
King
Don't understand this... could you clarify please? Or has this nothing to do with my last post?
Craig_Sutter
Deity
You'd mentioned you were disappointed that the mod spaceship victory wasn't medieval enough. However, the New World Victory won't be the only spaceship victory. There will be at least two others. In the works is also a Hanseatic League and a Silk Route Monopoly spaceship victory, each with its own components and modules that lead to victory. Multiple and differing spaceship victories can apparently be made to work via XML. I assume the civ that completes any of the possible spaceship victories will win.
I actually suggested a HRE victory a couple of pages back, similar to what you have mentioned, but I don't think it will be included.
I hope I've been able to clarify things a little. Sorry if the previous post was a little obscure. Look at the last few pages for a bit more clarity on the discussion (although it has largely been between myself and Head Serf).
In any case, any working spaceship victory is way better than the one in place at this version, which was also a New World victory, but one of few components and that made little sense.
I actually suggested a HRE victory a couple of pages back, similar to what you have mentioned, but I don't think it will be included.
I hope I've been able to clarify things a little. Sorry if the previous post was a little obscure. Look at the last few pages for a bit more clarity on the discussion (although it has largely been between myself and Head Serf).
In any case, any working spaceship victory is way better than the one in place at this version, which was also a New World victory, but one of few components and that made little sense.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
Have to clarify my post again... I actually didn't post about an HRE victory. I was mulling one over, and thought I had 
. Just reviewed my previous posts about the spaceship victories to see. I'm getting forgetful.
. Just reviewed my previous posts about the spaceship victories to see. I'm getting forgetful.
Arne
King
Thank you, now I can see your point.
I will try to explain a little more. Since your choice was adding even more wonders/buildings which represent the post medieval era, the mod turns in my eyes more and more to an "Renissance Kingdoms Mod" instead of left it "pure medieval" (I know, it never was pure medieval). So it seems to me, one is forced to run through the times with the final goal to forsake the middle ages as fast as possible instead of trying to reach the highs of middle ages.
This is just my opinion, no offense meant. It's your mod, not mine. I posted the Emperor suggestion while trying to make constructive statement. Didn't notice a discussion about that point here before. However, there are some more ideas. For example you also could add a pope election, may be even only for catholic kingdoms...
Well, finaly my suggeation is still, to remove/rename as much New World Buildings/Wonders as possible without many trouble and turn them into something medieval. Sure, the New World Space Race probably won't be replaced, but may be at least you could choose to rename that additional New World things? Thank you.
Well, not sure if I am really disappointed with that. I'm simply not happy with, thats true. I'm always wondering why something that is called "medieval" has victory conditions that aren't medieval as well. This goes in general, not specifically for this mod; the same is true for M2TW and so on.
I will try to explain a little more. Since your choice was adding even more wonders/buildings which represent the post medieval era, the mod turns in my eyes more and more to an "Renissance Kingdoms Mod" instead of left it "pure medieval" (I know, it never was pure medieval). So it seems to me, one is forced to run through the times with the final goal to forsake the middle ages as fast as possible instead of trying to reach the highs of middle ages.
This is just my opinion, no offense meant. It's your mod, not mine. I posted the Emperor suggestion while trying to make constructive statement. Didn't notice a discussion about that point here before. However, there are some more ideas. For example you also could add a pope election, may be even only for catholic kingdoms...
Well, finaly my suggeation is still, to remove/rename as much New World Buildings/Wonders as possible without many trouble and turn them into something medieval. Sure, the New World Space Race probably won't be replaced, but may be at least you could choose to rename that additional New World things? Thank you.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
I actually agree with you in many respects about whether a medieval mod should have new world aspects to it. It does fall within the time frame, though, and is a significant event. I tend to view it much like the space race in Civ vanilla, though. While technically in the modern era, it is an event that properly belongs in some future era. Similarly, with the New World Victory in a Medieval mod.
As well, I think the SS victory is going to be difficult to achieve with proper balancing, so that it may not be the deciding factor in many games.
Of course, many argue that 1492 is not the end of the medieval era, but rather, it comes with the fall of Byzantium.
What bothered me more, initially, about a New World Victory was that it made little sense for a nation like Hungary, for instance, to win one. I think multiple SS Victories is a way to overcome this, and with proper balancing will make the SS victory more rational.
I actually quite like the idea of an HRE victory, but I not certain how the AI will handle too many SS victories. Components might be securing a number of Electors, having the Pope's Blessing, the Ceding of Authority by member states, etc. That may be for later, I suppose, as we don't yet know how the new victories will work out, and how much they may need to be modified.
Anyhow, I've gotten too long-winded. I'm getting anxious to see the next version with its many changes.
As well, I think the SS victory is going to be difficult to achieve with proper balancing, so that it may not be the deciding factor in many games.
Of course, many argue that 1492 is not the end of the medieval era, but rather, it comes with the fall of Byzantium.
What bothered me more, initially, about a New World Victory was that it made little sense for a nation like Hungary, for instance, to win one. I think multiple SS Victories is a way to overcome this, and with proper balancing will make the SS victory more rational.
I actually quite like the idea of an HRE victory, but I not certain how the AI will handle too many SS victories. Components might be securing a number of Electors, having the Pope's Blessing, the Ceding of Authority by member states, etc. That may be for later, I suppose, as we don't yet know how the new victories will work out, and how much they may need to be modified.
Anyhow, I've gotten too long-winded. I'm getting anxious to see the next version with its many changes.
Broken Hawk
Emperor
A North African Salt Trade Route might be an alternative to the Conquest of the Americas victory.
Head Serf
Emperor
Ok, I have a lot of posting to catch up on. 
@Hamtastic 1/23 : I'm hoping that giving the keep a +25% or so defensive bonus will somewhat counteract the easy rushing of cities with spearmen. If after testing that doesn't seem to help much, I'll try reducing the strength of spearmen and increasing their bonus to mounted and give them a 25% or so boost to city defense.
@lshockley 1/23 : I'm glad to hear that like the mod, and any help is much appreciated. Some things that we need right now are lists of unique great people for the different civilizations/regions, (I've already included Great Propehts from Britain and Great Lords from Armenia), and ideas for new buildings. Also we need to get the new Silk Route SS victory worked out and any ideas for that are welcome. If you have any questions about the mod, feel free to ask.
@Craig_Sutter 1/24 :
@Hamtastic 1/24 :
@Drtad 1/24 :
@Arne 1/25 :
And I think that Craig explained the reasoning for including a New World victory pretty well.
@Craig_Sutter 1/25 :
@Hamtastic 1/23 : I'm hoping that giving the keep a +25% or so defensive bonus will somewhat counteract the easy rushing of cities with spearmen. If after testing that doesn't seem to help much, I'll try reducing the strength of spearmen and increasing their bonus to mounted and give them a 25% or so boost to city defense.
@lshockley 1/23 : I'm glad to hear that like the mod, and any help is much appreciated. Some things that we need right now are lists of unique great people for the different civilizations/regions, (I've already included Great Propehts from Britain and Great Lords from Armenia), and ideas for new buildings. Also we need to get the new Silk Route SS victory worked out and any ideas for that are welcome. If you have any questions about the mod, feel free to ask.
@Craig_Sutter 1/24 :
Good idea, it makes a lot more sense than just culture. I'll put it in.
Will do.
Good idea, I'll get something like that worked in.
@Hamtastic 1/24 :
I'll have to look into it more, but don't expect it to be in the next version.
@Drtad 1/24 :
Good idea, and maybe even later a type of wall that requires copper? I'll try to fit this into the next version.
Maybe for a later version.
I plan on making it and releasing it sometime after 0.5 comes out. I had made an earlier version with the small map, but I think that a scenario like this could really gain from the bigger map.
@Arne 1/25 :
I realize the title of the mod is confusing. Although it's called the European Middle Ages Mod, it really lasts from 500 AD (early migration or "dark" ages) to 1500 AD (8 years after the discovery of America and about 47 after the fall of Constantinople). It also implies that it only covers Europe, but it really also includes North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of western Asia.
Good idea, I think that a UN style victory like this would be a good idea. Don't expect it for the next version though.
And I think that Craig explained the reasoning for including a New World victory pretty well.
@Craig_Sutter 1/25 :
Version 0.5 release date: 1/27 - 1/30 barring any large problems or bugs.
Head Serf
Emperor
@Broken_Hawk : I know we might have a Spice Route victory, maybe the Salt Trade could be connected with that?
Drtad came up with this idea, and I just started including it. I created 3 different kinds of walls; wooden, stone, and fortified. Wooden comes with Fortifications, gives +25% def, and +2 exp. Stone with Engineering, requires stone, gives +25% def (all bonuses are on top of previous walls' bonuses), +3 exp. Fortified with Mathematics, requires copper, gives +50% def, +3 exp.
Drtad came up with this idea, and I just started including it. I created 3 different kinds of walls; wooden, stone, and fortified. Wooden comes with Fortifications, gives +25% def, and +2 exp. Stone with Engineering, requires stone, gives +25% def (all bonuses are on top of previous walls' bonuses), +3 exp. Fortified with Mathematics, requires copper, gives +50% def, +3 exp.
Head Serf
Emperor
These are the civilizations that have UU graphics that I am happy with:
These are the civilizations that have leaderhead graphics that I am happy with:
The reason I said "that I am happy with" is because several of the LHs use regular Civ4 graphics, such as Otto using the graphics for Bismarck, and the Irish UU uses the regular archer graphics, but I changed the graphics for the normal archers. Flaevius Aetius is currently using Julius Ceasar graphics, but I remember seeing a Trajan LH somewhere that might work better.
EDIT: For those who don't know, there are 33 total civilizations.
- England
- Saxony
- Wales
- Normans
- Scotland
- Ireland
- Germany
- Crusaders
- Spain
- Portugal
- Italian States
- Vikings
- Poland
- Russia
- Byzantines
- Armenia (I plan on improving it in the future)
- Arabia
- Egypt
- Moors
- Mongols
These are the civilizations that have leaderhead graphics that I am happy with:
- England
- Saxony
- Normans
- Scotland
- Ireland
- France
- Germany
- Spain
- Portugal
- Italian States
- Vikings
- Lithuania
- Poland
- Russia
- Hungary
- Byzantines
- Roman Empire
- Armenia
- Arabia
- Egypt
- Turks
- Moors
- Persia
- Tatars
- Mongols
- Khazars
The reason I said "that I am happy with" is because several of the LHs use regular Civ4 graphics, such as Otto using the graphics for Bismarck, and the Irish UU uses the regular archer graphics, but I changed the graphics for the normal archers. Flaevius Aetius is currently using Julius Ceasar graphics, but I remember seeing a Trajan LH somewhere that might work better.
EDIT: For those who don't know, there are 33 total civilizations.
lshockley
Warlord
Hello HeadSerf! I would be happy to get started on the great people names. I have reviewed the code in UnitInfos, and would like to suggest the following changes:
Saint
Noble --> Artist
Philosopher --> Scholar
Merchant
Engineer --> Noble
I don't agree with the removal of Great Artist. I think the Middle Ages produced a wealth of great artworks, including massive mosaics, frescos, and painstakingly detailed sculpture. May I suggest instead that Engineer is converted to Noble? Nobles could pull strings to accomplish great feats, so I think there is a better relationship between the Noble/Engineer effect. Also, it is debatable whether medieval engineers were engineers or artists,
Finally, I would like to suggest Great Scholar as a more inclusive term for scientists, mathmeticians, writers, philosophers, and the like.
What do you think? -Laina
Drtad
It Stinks!!!
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 838
Scholar is a very good idea. Another one that should be in is Great Historian. And if it gets in, here are some for Armenia.
Matthew of Edessa-famous historian, Armenian patriot, opponent of just about everything non-Armenian, got him killed eventually
John V the Historian-Catholicos of Armenia who was also a historian, wrote the History of Armenia
Faustus of Byzantium-Armenian historian who lived in Byzantium, wrote three large volumes of his History of the World, the first two of which are lost
Sebeos-Armenian bishop who wrote the entire History of Heraclius, wrote about the Sassanid domination of Armenia, and also wrote about Muhammud establishing Arab and Jewish communities in Armenia, participated in Council of Dvin, which caused a schism between Greek and Armenian Orthodoxy
Kirakos Gandzaketsi-wrote History of Armenia 4th-12th centuries, major primary source of Mongol invasions
Arab great lords Middle East area
Yusuf Ibn Abi'l-Saj-Emir of Azerbaijan invaded Armenia, attacked Caliphate of Baghdad, caused great problems, killed Armenian king Smbat I, eventually destroyed by Ashot II
Zengi-Atabeg of Mosul and Allepo won Siege of Edessa, destroyed County of Edessa, killed Matthew of Edessa, captured Armenian-Cilicia fortress of Hizan
Saif ad-Din Ghazi I-son of Zengi Atabeg of Mosul, aided in the second Crusade's defeat at Damascus
Nur ad-Din-son of Zengi Atabeg of Alleppo, annihilated Crusader army at Battle of Inab, also at Battle of Harim, tried to conquer all Muslim states down to the Nile
Sukman ibn Artuq-lord of Mardin decisively beat Crusaders at the Battle of Harran
Matthew of Edessa-famous historian, Armenian patriot, opponent of just about everything non-Armenian, got him killed eventually
John V the Historian-Catholicos of Armenia who was also a historian, wrote the History of Armenia
Faustus of Byzantium-Armenian historian who lived in Byzantium, wrote three large volumes of his History of the World, the first two of which are lost
Sebeos-Armenian bishop who wrote the entire History of Heraclius, wrote about the Sassanid domination of Armenia, and also wrote about Muhammud establishing Arab and Jewish communities in Armenia, participated in Council of Dvin, which caused a schism between Greek and Armenian Orthodoxy
Kirakos Gandzaketsi-wrote History of Armenia 4th-12th centuries, major primary source of Mongol invasions
Arab great lords Middle East area
Yusuf Ibn Abi'l-Saj-Emir of Azerbaijan invaded Armenia, attacked Caliphate of Baghdad, caused great problems, killed Armenian king Smbat I, eventually destroyed by Ashot II
Zengi-Atabeg of Mosul and Allepo won Siege of Edessa, destroyed County of Edessa, killed Matthew of Edessa, captured Armenian-Cilicia fortress of Hizan
Saif ad-Din Ghazi I-son of Zengi Atabeg of Mosul, aided in the second Crusade's defeat at Damascus
Nur ad-Din-son of Zengi Atabeg of Alleppo, annihilated Crusader army at Battle of Inab, also at Battle of Harim, tried to conquer all Muslim states down to the Nile
Sukman ibn Artuq-lord of Mardin decisively beat Crusaders at the Battle of Harran
Arne
King
@Craig_Sutter, Head Serf
A last thing bout that New World Stuff: I see you point, and I know it is always very hard work, chaning such stuff. My main reason for asking to change it, is a simple one: I can suggest better medivial scenarios based on your mod without that New World stuff included. There comes a lot of them in my mind... 100 Years War, War of Roses, Spanish Reconquista, a handfull of Crusades (not only to Jerusalem), uniting Britain, uniting *whatever* and so on. New World things inside that scenarios don't makes sense, I'm afraid. So it's not the title of the mod what is confusing, it is the content.
However, it's a great project, I wished, mine would be that improved now.
A last thing bout that New World Stuff: I see you point, and I know it is always very hard work, chaning such stuff. My main reason for asking to change it, is a simple one: I can suggest better medivial scenarios based on your mod without that New World stuff included. There comes a lot of them in my mind... 100 Years War, War of Roses, Spanish Reconquista, a handfull of Crusades (not only to Jerusalem), uniting Britain, uniting *whatever* and so on. New World things inside that scenarios don't makes sense, I'm afraid. So it's not the title of the mod what is confusing, it is the content.
However, it's a great project, I wished, mine would be that improved now.
Head Serf
Emperor
@ Arne : It's extremely easy to disable different victories for specific scenarios.
@ lshockley : Our reasoning for changing the Great Artist to a Great Lord (noble) is that culture was changed to "influence". I do see your point for needing a Great Artist unit, what with the importance of Medieval art and all, and I think that maybe making there be six great people would work. That way none of them have to be removed.
And I like your idea of changing Philosopher to Scholar, I'll put that in immeadiately.
@ lshockley : Our reasoning for changing the Great Artist to a Great Lord (noble) is that culture was changed to "influence". I do see your point for needing a Great Artist unit, what with the importance of Medieval art and all, and I think that maybe making there be six great people would work. That way none of them have to be removed.
And I like your idea of changing Philosopher to Scholar, I'll put that in immeadiately.
Arne
King
I don't know, what exactly happens if you use more then one "space race victory". If you turn this off in the scenario map, then are all your (different) space race victories off? I think so, but I don't know. If so, then is New World gone, but the other ones are gone too. Is this intended?
You also told about more New World buildings, independet from victory type. This buildings wouldn't be affected by turning off victory conditions, right? I don't want discuss this for ever, it's your choice. But I only wanted to state that turning off victory type "space race" may not be a solution for my little "problem".
lshockley
Warlord
OK, everybody, I have completed a list of Great People Names for your review! Once we finalize the list, I'll put it into <UniqueName> format so Head Serf can easily incorporate it to the mod.
I created this list from reading several historical reviews of the entire middle ages period. If you know of any important figures that I missed, please post! 1,000 years is long time in the lives of men and women. (@Drtad, the Armenians you posted have been incorporated! Thank you!)
The names in each category are listed in chronological order.
Great Artists: 37
This list includes architects, painters, sculptors, musicians, troubadours, and writers of fiction. I couldn't find anybody for 500-800. The first person on the list, Notker of St Gall, lived from 840-912. The last person on the list, Raphael Sanzio, lived from 1483-1520.
Great Merchants: 22
This list includes wealthy or prominent businessmen and merchants, explorers on trade missions, and wealth-mongering pirates. These were very difficult to find, and, I'm stumped on 500-1100. Any additions would be appreciated! The first person on the list, Peter Waldo, was a 12th century merchant in France. (Later in life, he denounced his wealth, and began preaching simplicity through poverty, but hey - we really need any merchant we can get.) Cartier, 1491-1557.
Great Nobles: 47
Many of these are noted rulers, others are influential nobles. Theodoric the Great lived from 454-526, Henry Tudor from 1457-1509.
Great Saints: 31
Founders of monasteries and religious movements, martyrs, and otherwise notable religious figures. Most of these are canonized, with the exception of Muhammad and Peter the Hermit. There were so many religious figures in the Middle Ages, that this was actually rather difficult. Ste. Brigid - 451-525, Ste. Joan of Arc 1412-1431.
Great Scholars: 50
Historians, writers of political commentary, translators, philosophers, mathmateticans, teachers, and scientists. Boethius, 470-524, and Girolamo Fracastoro, 1478-1553.
Next steps: review and if appropriate, incorporate existing names from modded UnitInfos.xml and vanilla UnitInfos.xml. Work on engineers.
Thoughts? -Laina
I created this list from reading several historical reviews of the entire middle ages period. If you know of any important figures that I missed, please post! 1,000 years is long time in the lives of men and women. (@Drtad, the Armenians you posted have been incorporated! Thank you!)
The names in each category are listed in chronological order.
Great Artists: 37
This list includes architects, painters, sculptors, musicians, troubadours, and writers of fiction. I couldn't find anybody for 500-800. The first person on the list, Notker of St Gall, lived from 840-912. The last person on the list, Raphael Sanzio, lived from 1483-1520.
Spoiler :
Great Merchants: 22
This list includes wealthy or prominent businessmen and merchants, explorers on trade missions, and wealth-mongering pirates. These were very difficult to find, and, I'm stumped on 500-1100. Any additions would be appreciated! The first person on the list, Peter Waldo, was a 12th century merchant in France. (Later in life, he denounced his wealth, and began preaching simplicity through poverty, but hey - we really need any merchant we can get.) Cartier, 1491-1557.
Spoiler :
Great Nobles: 47
Many of these are noted rulers, others are influential nobles. Theodoric the Great lived from 454-526, Henry Tudor from 1457-1509.
Spoiler :
Great Saints: 31
Founders of monasteries and religious movements, martyrs, and otherwise notable religious figures. Most of these are canonized, with the exception of Muhammad and Peter the Hermit. There were so many religious figures in the Middle Ages, that this was actually rather difficult. Ste. Brigid - 451-525, Ste. Joan of Arc 1412-1431.
Spoiler :
Great Scholars: 50
Historians, writers of political commentary, translators, philosophers, mathmateticans, teachers, and scientists. Boethius, 470-524, and Girolamo Fracastoro, 1478-1553.
Spoiler :
Next steps: review and if appropriate, incorporate existing names from modded UnitInfos.xml and vanilla UnitInfos.xml. Work on engineers.
Thoughts? -Laina
lshockley
Warlord
@Head Serf re: Great People:
Wow, adding a great person! That sounds tricky.
What should the Great Artist do? I'd say works of art in the middle ages caused happiness and wonder, inspired other artists to create great works, and possibly stimulated religious piety. I think a new great person building would be the way to go. It could add +10% influence, +10% commerce, +1 happy, and +25% great people birth rate. A "Conservatory"? And, I don't think that's overpowered - considering the Academy increases science by +50%. A settled Artist could produce +6 commerce, and +6 influence. Eh?
Also, what do you have in mind for Great Engineers? I included architects in the Great Artist category, but can relocate them. What other types of people would you like in this category?
-Laina
Wow, adding a great person! That sounds tricky.
What should the Great Artist do? I'd say works of art in the middle ages caused happiness and wonder, inspired other artists to create great works, and possibly stimulated religious piety. I think a new great person building would be the way to go. It could add +10% influence, +10% commerce, +1 happy, and +25% great people birth rate. A "Conservatory"? And, I don't think that's overpowered - considering the Academy increases science by +50%. A settled Artist could produce +6 commerce, and +6 influence. Eh?
Also, what do you have in mind for Great Engineers? I included architects in the Great Artist category, but can relocate them. What other types of people would you like in this category?
-Laina
Head Serf
Emperor
lshockley, this is amazing! These lists are fantastic, and are going into the next version for sure! 
I don't know if you read the post, it was actually quite a few pages back, but we're slowly working on getting region-specific great people. For instance, countries like Arabia, Egypt and the Moors would produce differently named unique people than say, the Vikings.
These are still very much needed, since we currently have no names for Great Nobles, Great Engineers, Great Merchants, and Great Scholars (was Philosophers). Don't worry about adding this to your list, but if you add future great people, please include what country or region they're from. This will help me organize them when we get to that point.
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
I don't know if you read the post, it was actually quite a few pages back, but we're slowly working on getting region-specific great people. For instance, countries like Arabia, Egypt and the Moors would produce differently named unique people than say, the Vikings.
These are still very much needed, since we currently have no names for Great Nobles, Great Engineers, Great Merchants, and Great Scholars (was Philosophers). Don't worry about adding this to your list, but if you add future great people, please include what country or region they're from. This will help me organize them when we get to that point.
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