European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

Some of my thoughts...

First off, I'm once again impressed by the amount of effort some of the modders have put in in making this mod amongst the best. That's a lot of work and thought accomplished in a short time. Excellent.

The Jewish buildings seem ok. I'm not convinced that the Shrine should increase the religion's spread, though. It seems to me the current spread rate is pretty good. I've seen Judaism scattered about in sufficient quantities to provide semihistorical enclaves, this without a Shrine. I'm worried that if it has a higher spread rate, it might start to match the big three in terms of conversion. Right now, until the Shrines are built, it matches them (as does Paganism) in spread rate. Allowing a Shrine, as well, will allow it to continue to match the big 3's spread. I'm not certain this is justified. The higher the spread rate, the more likely it will be adopted as the State Religion of some Civilization, and once that happens, a religion tends to spread like wildfire within that Civ. I'm not certain about the historical accuracy of this for Judaism. (Although the Khazar's did select it at one point... let's assume that they were initially small p, pagans, and Judaism was fortunate to be the first religion to enter any of their cities, so they converted). This is possibile in the current system, however, I don't think we want to see one of the big 3 supplanted by Judaism... for instance, an Islamic Arab civilization converting to Judaism (since it has aquired the Holy City and some of it's cities have Jewish population due to an increased spread rate from a Shrine). Anyhow, if there is a Jewish Shrine, I propose it not effect the spread rate. If a Civ does convert, the religion will spread fairly well within its borders, and this is ok, but spreading into others Civs, I think, is problematic. Similarly, I don't think there should be Jewish missionaries... I don't think the religion carried such a heirarchical structure such that some leader would say "go, convert the heathen", and send out the missionaries, unlike Christians. (I'm not certain how the idea of missionaries fits with Islam, either, but since Islam is to be a dominant religion, I suppose it is needed for game balance).

So, in short, buildings ok, but I'd advise Shrine, no spread rate, and no missionaries. Just my opinion.

Reliquary changes seem good. They certainly need reworking. I kind of like the beeswax/incense bumps, but I like any buildings that use resources in a unique manner... (as you can probably see from some of my Hanseatic suggestions).

I strongly agree with realigning the whole influence thing. It should be related to power and governance... castles and courts should be fairly big influence generators for instance, with keeps and other buildings that exert authority and power included. The influence (culture) slider needs to affect some of these (as per theatres and colluseums in regular game). I'm glad you are rationalizing the system, somewhat.

I don't know how much you've looked into my suggestions for other religious based buildings. I'll trust you to decide if they fit into the scheme of things.

That's it for now, until I think of more.
 
I asked in the general mod forums about spreadrates from Shrines, and got an answer...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207385

I'm going to try to manipulate the Shrines' effect on spreadrate to see if some of the Pagan civs can be convinced to eventually give up and switch... as of now, it's fairly static once a civ has gone over to Paganism (or any other religion, for that matter). For Islam, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, this is OK, as I don't think they went wholesale to another religion except via conquest; however, Paganism should gradually be dropped. It represents many diverse beliefs, not one religion, and historically, all but disappeared. I think by 1400, it should no longer exist as anybodies State religion (if this is possible, given that the civ with the Holy City likely has an AI that mandates it keep that religion as its state one).

Anyhow, I'm going to do play testing with the Shrine spread rates by increasing them incrementally until I see some conversions from Paganism within a reasonable time from. My one worry is that this may cause religions to become too mixed as the big three encroach too easily into cities that already have another religion... this is ok to a degree, but I think we want to avoid a situation where every city on the continent has every religion available.

Anyhow, I'm going to work on this aspect of religion for now.
 
@Craig – I understand your concern about preserving the Big 3’s edge regarding spread factor. My intent for allowing one city to build Jewish missionaries was to give Judaism a spread-edge over Paganism. Head Serf opposes Jewish missionaries as well, so we can scratch that idea. However, I do think Judaism should have a better chance of spreading than Paganism.

I have an idea that might accomplish both our goals: How about if the Islamic, Catholic, and Orthodox reliquaries spread religion also? Using the current <iSpreadFactor>s in 0.5, that would result in the following net spread rates:



Keep in mind that Islam, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the advantage of missionaries. I wonder what the religious dispersion in the world be today if the Jews and pagans hadn’t been persecuted, or forced to choose between conversion and death. I think if the human player controlling the big 3 holy cities spread their religion, then Judaism and Paganism should still have a chance of survival (but not all-out domination). Without missionaries and with lower net spreads, I think the 3:2:1 spread is reasonable. Also, this will widen the gap between Paganism and the Big 3, which I think may address your concern about Paganism dwindling during the Late Middle Ages.

Any thoughts? -Laina
 
I like those changes.

In addition, we might consider juggling Paganism's spread rate, and holy city factor while keeping the spread rate, in total, the same. Realistically, as Paganism was not one but many religions, there ought not to be a Holy City at all, but that can't be done. However, we can eliminate it, the Holy City, from contributing to spread... while still maintaining its total spread rate. Would the spread rate be 0&#37; with Holy City factor set at 0? I don't think so.

Not really important, anyhow, in the scheme of things... just semantics.

Anyhow, I like these changes.
 
Just looked over your buildings list, again, from a few pages back...

should Belfry require copper, and perhaps, New Mines tech... bells were bronze.

Just a thought...

And I reiterate a building and national wonder I've mentioned before...

Tourney
Royal Tourney National Wonder

Tourney gives experience to Knight Units (or UU's). Adds Happiness. This could be related to the influence slider.

Royal Tourney acts as per Tourney, plus increases GP points (Great Lord) and adds influence.
 
Random thoughts on Crusades, brought to mind with the reinvigoration of Holy Ones Crusade Scenario...

Wouldn't it be kind of neat if each one of the Crusades was made into a specific wonder. We could tailer each to the actual campaigns to reflect the circumstances of that particular Crusade. Perhaps these might not be buildable, but require expenditure of a Great Saint to build. Maybe they might only be buildable with Holy War Civic. They should have a very brief shelf life, becoming obsolete with the very next tech.

For instance, a Wonder named The First Crusade, would give a number of free Crusader Units, and/or allow production of same. Effects could vary with each Crusade, depending upon how it started, the reasons for it, who called it and its effectiveness. Perhaps a Crusade might briefly increase the spread rate of the religion until it becomes obsolete.

Similarly, I'm certain Islam had waves of conquest that could be named as specific Wonders and generated similarly... it would be cool, for instance, if a Great Person, Mohammed, could generate a jihadic Wonder.

I'm not certain what Crusade Byzantium could do, but perhaps they could split the Christian crusade wonders.

Even the Judaism could have a few Diasporas, for instance, where the spread rate would briefly be pumped up by the Wonder.

Just spit-balling.
 
Great, I'm glad that works! The more I think about the Reliquary idea, the more I like it.

A rambling aside:
Spoiler :
I don't mean to offend anyone - but when I visited Italy I was shocked to discover that basilicas are only basilicas if they have a Saint's body part. I never knew that! Some of these are pickled in jars and on display - others are more discreetly stored in a sort of sarcophagus with a viewing window. The basilica keeper in Siena (where their basilica's relic is a 600-year-old head!) was very candid in telling me that at one point in history, whenever a saint was canonized, there would be a great rush to exhume and dismember the body of the new saint into as many pieces as possible to allow for the maximum number of new basilicas. !!! Anyhow, I thought that was interesting. :)

If each religion is at its max spread rate (50, 100, 150 after shrine+reliquary), then the odds of a new city adopting each religion would be as follows:

Paganism: 50/600 = 8%
Judaism: 100/600 = 17%
Islam: 150/600 = 25%
Catholicism: 150/600 = 25%
Orthodoxy: 150/600 = 25%

I just looked at vanilla for a comparison on spread rates. Base speed for all religions is 100, and holy city influence is set to 1. So in vanilla, net spreads are 100 for each religion, 200 with shrine. So we may be a bit low - maybe 75 would be a better base speed to give us 75/150/225.

@Craig re: Pagan holy city - I agree that a Pagan holy city is a little silly. :) However, Holy City influence is set in GlobalDefines, so we wouldn't be able to change it for Paganism only. (At least not easily.) Since the net spread factor is in effect unmodified by the holy city (50 x 1 = 50), the Holy City doesn't really increase the spread anyway.

I wonder what *would* happen if Holy City influence were set to 0?? That'd be an interesting experiment. Maybe it would be 0? Once a religion is founded, it does spread, even before the shrine is built. Of course it doesn't spread before it is founded, but maybe that's because it's still at 0?

Not yet founded - base speed 100 x 0 = 0
Holy City (founded) - 100 x 1 = 100
Shrine built - 100 x 2 = 200

What do you think? -L
 
I like the Tourney and Great Tourney! I will add them. How about if Tourney requires a fair, and Great Tourney requires 4 tourneys?

Regarding belfry - my intent with belfry was to provide +1 influence early in the game, as I removed the +1 infl from Keep. (In my game, my state religion was Judaism, so the Keep was the only thing I could build to expand my city squares to fat crosses). It was meant to be sort of a medievalized vanilla obelisk. So I have it coming early in the tech tree at Stone Working. Though you're right about copper. Perhaps construction could be accelerated with copper, rather than required? Or, I'm open to ideas for an alternate early-game influence building - if we come up with something else, I will move belfry further back in the tech tree and add the copper requirement.

-L
 
@lshockley

A couple of posts above you were discussing missionaries. If Judaism is not going to them, I think Islam should not have them either (to be historically correct).

Sorry I haven't provided more input but you and Craig_Sutter have been on a brainstorming roll and I have been distracted by the monotony of real life lately.
 
I don't think we need to change the base speed to 75&#37;...yet. The early spread rates seem about right in-game. And that was before the reliquaries were updated (good idea, more I think of it, by the way). I think we should keep the base spread as is for now.

No need to fiddle with 0 holy city rate, I think, but if you come up with some unique results from experimenting, it would be interesting...
 
Perhaps Keeps could regain their influence generating ability, as they were used to exert power over an area, as well as having protective purposes.

I'll try to think of some other building possibilities...

Sheriff or Bailiff's Office (although I think that would come with some Feudal tech... to late in the tech tree).

Village Moot? Tribal Moot? Ding or Thing? They all have something to do with governance.
 
I've been working on a whole Europe scenario for this mod, and have now released it for download... it is a huge (112x96) map, but there is lots of Tundra and Desert, so slower computers may still be able to handle it.

It has the standard game civs plus Bulgaria, for 18 civs. I tried to make it as accurate as possible. I used the BMP to WBS program available from the mods forum... it was to be 140x120 initially. I may still release the larger (and far more accurate) version at a subsequent time (it would need to have XML changes to accommodate the greater size).

The download is at:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207863
 

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I was made aware that the mod download is not working when someone tried to download for my map. I checked, and got a DNS error when I attempted the download. Ideas, anyone?

@Craig - I was able to download the .zip to my desktop no problem. A DNS error is usually a resolve error - they usually fix themselves. Try again...
 
@ lshockley 2/15 :
Also, may I suggest the Masjid al-Haram as a more appropriate name for the Islamic Shrine? Currently, the Islamic Shrine is named the Umayyad Mosque.
Sounds like a good name change, although the Ummayad Mosque might still make a good wonder.
Jewish Synagogue - +1 happy if Judaism is state religion, +1 happy with Torah Scrolls (see below).
Jewish Shrine – +1 gold from all cities practicing Judaism, spreads Judaism, +1 gpp Great Saint, +1 happy if state religion is Judaism. (same as other Shrines)
I like the Jewish Shrine, obviously it will need a different name than "Jewish Shrine". Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any holy sites of Judaism built in the Middle Ages, so maybe a more general "Temple Mount" would work. I think that the Jewish Synagogue should provide something other than just happiness, maybe +2 allowed saints in the city? Or +2 philosophers?
Pagan and Jewish buildings don't add influence, regardless of state religion.
Islamic Madrasah and Catholic Convent don't add influence. (Was there supposed to be a +20% GPBR building for Orthodoxy? If so, I'll add one.)
Islamic/Catholic/Orthodox Monasteries don't add influence.
Islamic Mosques and Catholic/Orthodox Churches add +1 influence regardless of state religion.
Islamic Great Mosques and Catholic/Orthodox Cathedrals Churches add +25% influence, but require the appropriate state religion to build. (Example: Islamic Great Mosque +25% influence, cannot build unless Islam is the state religion and the appropriate number of Mosques have been built.)
Good on all points, maybe the Cathedrals and Great Mosques should provide +2 influence in addition to +25% overall? Just an idea.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/15 :
(I'm not certain how the idea of missionaries fits with Islam, either, but since Islam is to be a dominant religion, I suppose it is needed for game balance).
Islam did aggresively spread their religion, but a better name than Islamic Missionary might be Da'i. Here's a little information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%27i
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Da%27is

@ HolyOne 2/15 :
I'll make a note of it on the first page.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/16 :
Tourney gives experience to Knight Units (or UU's). Adds Happiness. This could be related to the influence slider.
Good idea, but I think that giving experience to mounted units would make tourney's more useful than just one type of unit. Should it come with the same tech that Knights come with?

@ lshockley 2/16 :
Regarding belfry - my intent with belfry was to provide +1 influence early in the game, as I removed the +1 infl from Keep. (In my game, my state religion was Judaism, so the Keep was the only thing I could build to expand my city squares to fat crosses). It was meant to be sort of a medievalized vanilla obelisk. So I have it coming early in the tech tree at Stone Working. Though you're right about copper. Perhaps construction could be accelerated with copper, rather than required? Or, I'm open to ideas for an alternate early-game influence building - if we come up with something else, I will move belfry further back in the tech tree and add the copper requirement.
I think that the keep should retain its +1 influence. Do we really need a belfry building? I personally think that the keep respresents a lord's hold over the land better than a belfry, and I can't think of any other good benefits for it (the belfry).

@ Broken Hawk 2/16 :
A couple of posts above you were discussing missionaries. If Judaism is not going to them, I think Islam should not have them either (to be historically correct).
I already posted some information about Islamic Da'i, and Judaism has never been a religion to go out and spread its faith.

I think that the current religous base spread of 50 is good, but as Craig_Sutter has said, playtesting will show what works best.

Looks like a nice map, Craig :goodjob: . Hopefully I'll be able to run it! :lol:
 
@Head Serf - I also came up with Temple Mount as the name for the Jewish Shrine. And, I think adding +2 influence and +25&#37; infl is a good change for Cathedrals/Great Mosques. I will also add +2 priests allowed with Synagogues - I think priest will be more valuable, as Jewish cities can obtain scholars through scientific buildings.

Regarding keep: My logic for removing the +1 influence was the idea that any community could build a keep and wooden walls for defense. However, construction of stone walls was considered a privelege - the right of fortification. With this in mind, I decided that Keep and Wooden Walls would not add influence, but Stone Walls, Fortified Walls, and Castles would. However, by removing the Keep's +1 influence I realized I would be removing the only early game +1 influence building, hence the Belfry.

I like the idea of having a Belfry, as it is a typical feature of a fairly developed medieval city. I added +5% hammers for Belfry as a nod to its role in sounding church time, court time, work time, and quitting time.

I will happily defer to the consensus of the group - keep or belfry for early +1 influence? And, if we go with Keep for early influence, shall we modify, retain or remove Belfry?

-L
 
I am adding Tourney now. I will add free exp for all mounted units - I don't know how to add free exp for just one type of unit anyway, :)

I am thinking there are two ways to go with this: we can add a modest amount of free exp for all mounted units, say +2, and allow an unlimited # of tourneys to be built civ-wide. Royal Tourney would require 6 tourneys.

Or, we could add +4 experience per tourney, limit tourneys to 4 civ-wide, and Royal Tourney would require 4 tourneys.

I prefer the latter... what do you guys think? -L
 
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