European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

Ok, there are a ton of posts for me to catch up on, and I'll try to get to those tonight. For now, I have a few things:

Firstly, I don't think there's anything wrong with the naval values at all. The Byzantines should not be able to quickly send a navy to England. It should be faster than walking, granted, but as soon as you get shipbuilding the ships really can make the voyage in what is, in my opinion, relativly realistic and balanced for gameplay.

A slightly smaller domination threshold would be good, I think, but nothing extreme. Maybe a reduction to 40%? Victory is supposed to be challenging, and a threshold of 20% would be extremely easy (Russia already naturally gets around 9%).

Lastly at Drtad. Good idea regarding the languages, it's getting about time to start translating some of the mod, and as you said, translating diplomacy text would be fun and make the mod stand out a bit. I can do a lot of the German. I'll post a list of the languages needed on the first page.

If you think you can help with a language, even if it's only a little, just post with what language you can help with.
 
Hey Everyone!

I'm only home for a few minutes before my next appointment, but thought I'd throw out my thoughts before I forget them...

Gringoesteban's observation that the AI is quite inept at specializing on a spaceship victory is well taken - I noticed that as well. Perhaps there is something we can do about this in the XML, I'll take a look.

@Craig Sutter - Thank you for all those great ideas for nat'l wonders! I will read through them again in more detail and give you my thoughts. Also, I completely agree with you on spreading out the Hansa memberships on the tech tree and adding prereq bonuses (and I would still like to make them wonders, if that is agreeable to everyone else) - I will look at those next.

-Laina
 
List of languages: (Just the main scenario ones for now)

French
German (Head Serf)
Spanish
Italian
Polish
Norwegian or Danish (for Vikings)
Russian
Hungarian or Latin (for Hungary)
Greek (for Byzantines)
Tatar or Turkish (for Tatars, however only 5 million people speak Tatar)
Turkish
Arabic or even better, Masri (for Egypt)
Arabic (the Moors)
Armenian
Lithuanian or Polish (for Lituania)
Arabic
 
Finally, I've found the time to try this mod out and I must say that it's incredible so far.

Terrific job and I've only scratched the surface. This captures the best timeframe to play Civ perfectly. :thumbsup:
 
@ Drtad 2/9 :
I have also noticed that the Tatars tend to be extremely weak throughout the game. Maybe something to look at.
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I think it's from them having very little food. Maybe I'll mix in some grasslands with the plains and maybe some food resources. I'll have to see how it all balances out.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/10 :
Head Serf - noticed Arquebusier has no resource requirements... ought to have copper and iron, if I'm not mistaken.
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I was gonna make that change last version, guess I forgot... I'll put that in.

@ Craig_Sutter 2/11 :
The following National Wonders are religious based buildings. Each requires a certain religion be the state religion, and produces special units in limited numbers (as per missionaries).

Berserker Hall (or Jomsviking Hall)... requires Pagan be the state religion. Requires 3 sacred sites (pagan temples?). Allows production of limited number (5?) of Berserker units. Berserkers as Swordsman type units that can be built in the city of this wonder in limited numbers when the religion is Pagan. They revert to Swordsman when the state religion is not pagan. They are obsolete with the same tech as swordsman becomes obsolete, and upgrade to footknight. Should have increase strength, but decreased defense...

Represent fanatic Pagan warrior, exemplified by Berserker, but also seen in various pagan warrior cults such as Dervishes, or other sacred warrior bands.

Order Chapterhouse... represents centre for particular Crusader Order. Available with Monastic Order Tech. Orthodox and Catholic versions require appropriate religion be state religion. Require monastery buildings (5). Allows production of Order Knights and Order Footknights in limited number (5?). They are obsolete with same techs as Knight and Footknight, and upgrade similarly.

Muslim equivalent to Chapterhouse. Requires Islam be state religion. Available with Monastic Orders. Requires 5 islamic monasteries. Produces knight/footknight crusader equivalents (mudjahadeem?) and upgrades same way.

Again, should this be acceptable I'd work on this in more detail.
Click to expand...
Good idea, sounds a little complex. Should the wonders be national or world?

I've been really busy, I'll try to finish up with responses tomorrow.
 
They're national wonders. (although, no reason they might not be regular buildings with monastery or sacred site (for pagans) as a prereq... then I'd give them some other benefits, as well).

Not certain they are that complex. Religiously based wonders and buildings are already in the game. The units could be modeled on the way missionaries work, with limited numbers allowed to be built. For instance, instead of monastery-missionary requirement, one could have National Wonder-Religious unit relationship. Missionaries, of course, can be built in any city when Organized Religion is in play... I would propose that Holy War Civc fullfill this role in our mod. As any religious building, the building effects would only occur when the religion is the state religion. I think all the game structures are in place to do this relatively easily (although I'm not a modder, so can't say this for certain).
 
Here is a simple greeting in Armenian for Ashot I:

Parev, eem anoonuhs e Ashot Bagratuni. Khuhntrem ners muhdek yev Haikakan soorj muh khmenk.

Which roughly translates to:

Hello, my name is Ashot Bagratuni. Please come in and lets have some Armenian coffee.

I'll try to do all of the other diplomatic options into Armenian, and then I'll do Italian next. I need to practice my Italian really bad.:blush:
 
Craig, the Dome of the Rock generates gold from state religion buildings. You probably had Orthodoxy as your state religion, which is why it would appear that way. And it's been reported, the Islam/Jewish requirements. I'll get that fixed.

I created some new graphics for the Goten Huskarl. Here's the thread.
 
General responses to the national wonders ideas:

Oxford University and Medici Bank: Sound like good, solid ideas. As you said, they would help with city specialization.

Hansa Member Wonders: Moving them away from their cookie-cutter appearance is probably a good idea. Mixing up the benefits (resources, trade routes, happiness, food) will further help with city specialization. I think that they should remain national wonders. This way they can be limited to one or two per city, as opposed to world wonders which can have many in one city.

Jakob Fugger's Bank : I'd rather not get it too involved with resources, mainly because there are already a lot of resources and it's important to keep things balanced for city happiness and healthiness. I think that providing a bank in every city and maybe a free merchant or two in that city would be better.

Oracle : Good, but why would it require a sacred site, considering that it provides sacred sites in every city?

Religious National Wonders: Good idea, but would it work better if they were normal buildings, acting like the monastary of regular civ4? Then we could have a civic allow their production without a building, maybe theocracy or holy war?

I have an idea for getting certain civilizations to prefer certain victories: flavors. I could make new flavors for each of the victories and then have the different leaders have different preferances. Of course, I don't know if this is doable, I'll need to check it out.

In later versions I also plan on making the resources on the main map more region specific so that it is more difficult for different civs to get far away resources and therefore, victories they shouldn't be getting.

I'll keep the list of languages on the first page. lshockley, do you know those languages well enough to do some translations? I wasn't really sure what you were saying by your post.

And thanks for the compliments, Woodelf!
 
I have finished the Armenian diplomacy, tell me if I missed something, I probably did, I was just quickly skimming over the file.

Refuse to talk text:
Yes kezee hetch chem oozer khosil! Archeves kna!
I don't want to speak to you at all! Get out of my face!

No peace text:
Yes kezi lav muh bidi puzugdem! Grivuh chi luhmuhnnar minchev verchin zinvoruht merni!
I am going to destroy you! This fight won't stop until your last soldier is dead!

Greeting when attitude is friendly (not much here):
Ungerus! Eench ah?
My friend! What is it?

Greeting with furious attitude:
Parev eshi koorrag. Indzmeh inch goozes? Arten kiddes vor toon eem yergris mechuh ches gurnar muhnahl!
Hello you big jerk (not a direct translation). What do you want from me?
You already know that you are not permitted in my country!

Demanding tribute while weaker:
Hajik, eem yergiruhs dram choonih, ays buzdik panuh eendzi gurnahs dahl?
Please, my country has no money, could you spare this small item?

Demanding tribute while equal in power:
Yes kezmeh shad chem bahanjer, asee bedk ooneem.
I am not asking much, I need this.

Demanding tribute while stronger:
Toon eentsmeh shad aveli dgar es. Yeteh eendzi ays buhzdig panuh das, yes kezi guh bashdbanem oorish yergirnereh.
You are a lot weaker than I am. You give me this small item, I will protect you from other countries.

The translation is in my Armenian dialect, Western Armenian. I am sorry, but I don't know Medieval Armenian. Also, it's very difficult to write Armenian using English letters, a lot of pronunciations are missing, so I had to make some letter combinations up to achieve the desired sound.

Spoiler :
I changed my avatar! The Armenian flag colors were getting too bright for me anyway.
 
Head Serf.... you're quite right about the religious national wonders. It's likely better they be normal buildings. They act almost like monasteries, in effect, except they don't produce missionaries, but combat units. And you're also right that perhaps any city could produce the units with Holy War... makes sense. Perhaps an ancilliary benefit of the building may be decreased war weariness?

That doesn't preclude a Wonder like "Jomsviking Hall" for instance, which may allow additional units above the 5 or so the ordinary building may produce.

Anyhow, the Buildings might be:

Berserker Hall: requires Mysticism and a Pagan Temple, and Pagan religion.
Catholic Chaperhouse: requires Monastic Orders and a monastery, and Catholic Religion.
Orthodox Chaperhouse: requires Monastic Orders and a monastery, and Orthodox religion.
Islamic "Chapterhouse???): requires Monastic Orders and a monastery, and Islam religion (or perhaps a Madrasah or other building would be the requirement, or even the required building for the unit).

Berserker Hall would allow up to 5 Berserkers to be built.
Chapterhouse might allow 5 Order Knights and 5 Order Footknights.
Islamis might allow 5 Assassins or 5 Mujahadeem to be built (don't know about effects)
 
I'm starting to fiddle with Religion spread rates. I really like the settings now, as generally, Civs switch from paganism (small p) to the established religions in a fairly historic manner (within reason). Also, generally, I'm finding that the Vikings and Lithuania, and a couple of others, intermittantly, convert to Pagan (big P), again in a historic manner, within reason.

However, there is a small problem. Once Paganism takes hold, a Civ doesn't very often go from it to the "civilized" religions. In fact, the longer a civ is Pagan, the more intrenched that belief becomes, and the less likely is conversion.

This is a problem as Paganism really should become a minor belief over time, and most civs should convert as the late game ends.

Since the spread rates seem good as is, with 50% for each, and that seems to work well, I'm hesitant to really change them. I have briefly changed Islam, Catholicism and Orthodoxy to 60% but haven't given it much testing... the one game test I tried, the Lithuanians became Catholic whereas at 50% they usually become Pagan. Keep in mind that that was one trial, but it gives a hint that changing the basic spread rate might not do.

What is needed is something that changes the spread rate during the later game, when one wants the "civilized" religions to overcome the pull of Paganism.

How can this be done:

1. Shrines affect spread rate. I've searched the files to determine if this can be adjusted. If it can, the rate shrines of the "civilized" religions affect the rate could be reset at a higher level. If enough cities of the Pagan Civ contain other religions, it may convert... there may be AI tinkering needed here.

Anyhow, I've asked about building spread rates in the general mod forum. If its possible to adjust this, I assume I'll soon know. Perhaps multiple Shrines may be needed if they adjust the spread rate in a fixed manner.

2. Is there anyway a Religion can become obsolete? Is there some such setting in XML. I think it might be pretty easy to program in Python that all cities with Pagan religion in them have that religion eliminated from them whenever some key technology (education? or some religious one), is achieved. I'm not certain what the effect on the Holy City for Paganism would be if every Pagan city lost that religion, including the Holy City itself. Would the religion re-spread from the holy city?

Anyhow, this is not of the highest priority, but something I want to work on a bit.

Any thoughts?
 
Hey Everyone!

I will add the bulidings laid out by Craig & Head Serf. (I apologize - I still haven't looked at them in detail, though I will post my comments, if any, while I'm working on the code.) Also, I already fixed Dome of the Rock. (Jud/Isl mixup).

If you think you can help with a language, even if it's only a little, just post with what language you can help with.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion - I was responding to this portion of your request - I know Spanish, French, and Italian well enough to help with some translation, but I doubt I'll be able to properly translate everything. I intended to say that I could help just a little with the transaltion for those three. English is my first language - native speakers of those languages would certainly be preferable to me.

-Laina
 
Drtad, I need the first contact diplo, peace diplo, trading, trade accept, trade decline, happy that the offer was accepted, annoyed that the offer was accepted, response to player declining their offer, annoyed response to player declining their offer, "what do you think of this offer" equivalent, no deal, offer peace, offer city (never seen this happen before...), offer deal happy, offer deal annoyed, cancel deal happy, cancel deal annoyed, thanks, current deals, accept ask, reject ask, accept demand, reject demand, give help, ask for help, ask for help annoyed, demand rejected when stronger, demand rejected when weaker, demand rejected when equal, pressure into switching religions (stronger, equal, and weaker needed), rejection response for pressuring into switching religions (stronger, equal, weaker), civic pressure, civic rejected, join war, join war denied, stop trading, stop denied, brag, worst enemy, worst enemy trading (as in, stop trading with so and so, they are our worst enemy!), something else, yes?, well?, so be it. There are a few more, but I need to see which ones are choices for the player and which are computer dialog.

EDIT: Don't worry about getting them soon, I realize it's an absolute ton of dialog.

EDIT2: Thanks for helping with Armenian!
 
The caravan unit is not functioning because the trade values are both set at zero in the XML unit file. The following two lines should be updated for the Caravan unit in the Middle Ages Mod folder Assets/XML/Units/CIV4UnitInfos

<iBaseTrade>40</iBaseTrade>
<iTradeMultiplier>100</iTradeMultiplier>

Note that these suggested numbers, namely 40 and 100, may be too high, because they give the Player something like 240 gold if the Caravan travels a long distance. As a point of reference, the Great Merchant unit has values of 500 and 200, respectively, so although 40 and 100 are already well below that, perhaps they should be dropped a little more.

I made the change suggested above, and the Caravan unit worked fine for me, but I did not see any AI Caravans. I am not familiar with the structure of the CIV4 XML files, but after skimming through them, perhaps one or more of the following lines for the Caravan unit needs to be updated because it is the same as the Worker unit:

<DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_WORKER</DefaultUnitAI>

<UnitAIs>
<UnitAI>
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_WORKER</UnitAIType>
<bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI>
 
@Craig - Yes, I would be happy to post a rundown before I add the buildings you suggested.

A buildings xml update: so far I have added the new buildings I suggested a few post pages back, plus the Medici Bank and Oxford University National Wonders, created strategy and pedia text for all existing buildings, and cleaned up the XML. (To name a few: fixed <Tag></Tag>, fixed conflicting religion tags and corrected <PrereqBonuses> format to allow and/or bonuses.) I also organized the entries by type - Nat'l Wonder A-Z, Building A-Z, Religious Buildings, by religion in order of building hierarchy, and World Wonders A-Z, and removed duplicate and non-referenced entries. I am by no means doen - I haven't yet reviewed the National Wonders or World Wonders, or reviewed overall tech tree placement and cost for all buildings.

Now I am working on reviewing the existing Religious buildings. I think we are giving Judaism too much of a slight. There are no Judaism buildings - no temple, monastery, cathedral, convent, or Shrine. The only Jewish building is Dome of the Rock, a world wonder similar to vanilla Spiral Minaret - +1 gold for each Jewish building. I agree that Judaism should be trampled upon as compared to the big three, but even Paganism has the Sacred Site and Pagan Temple. Given that Judaism survived the Middle Ages despite persecution and massacre and Paganism did not, I think we should give Judaism a little more recognition in our mod.

I suggest that we add Jewish buildings as follows:
  • Jewish Synagogue - +1 happy if Judaism is state religion, +1 happy with Torah Scrolls (see below).
  • Jewish Shrine – +1 gold from all cities practicing Judaism, spreads Judaism, +1 gpp Great Saint, +1 happy if state religion is Judaism. (same as other Shrines)

As mentioned by Head Serf, Reliquary needs to be reworked. Currently, a reliquary may be built by a Great Saint and provides Christian Relic (1). Suggestion for re-working Reliquary: Requires Great Saint and Shrine to build in Holy City:
  • Judaism: Ark of the Covenant – Provides Torah Scrolls bonus (1), this city may build Jewish missionaries.
  • Catholicism & Orthodoxy: Catholic Reliquary, Orthodox Reliquary – Provides Christian Relic bonus (1).
  • Islam: The Kaaba – Provides Black Stone bonus (1)
  • Paganism: None (No Shrine)

My idea is that the bonuses provided by the special holy city building could add +1 happy to the Orthodox/Catholic/Islamic cathedrals instead of Beeswax, Christian Relic, and Incense. In addition to creating a new use for the Great Saint, this will make control of a religion's holy city more valuable, which perhaps will make for some interesting gameplay. What does everyone think?

Also, may I suggest the Masjid al-Haram as a more appropriate name for the Islamic Shrine? Currently, the Islamic Shrine is named the Umayyad Mosque.

Finally, currently the religious buildings carry influence values similar to the culture values in their vanilla counterparts. I've been thinking that perhaps religious buildings shouldn't add influence unless they are state religious buildings.

Here is my proposal:
  • Pagan and Jewish buildings don't add influence, regardless of state religion.
  • Islamic Madrasah and Catholic Convent don't add influence. (Was there supposed to be a +20% GPBR building for Orthodoxy? If so, I'll add one.)
  • Islamic/Catholic/Orthodox Monasteries don't add influence.
  • Islamic Mosques and Catholic/Orthodox Churches add +1 influence regardless of state religion.
  • Islamic Great Mosques and Catholic/Orthodox Cathedrals Churches add +25% influence, but require the appropriate state religion to build. (Example: Islamic Great Mosque +25% influence, cannot build unless Islam is the state religion and the appropriate number of Mosques have been built.)

Regarding other buildings, I think governmental buildings should add the most influence, and buildings that don't strengthen the ruler's hold or lordship over the people should not add any influence at all. What do you guys think?

I look forward to hearing each of your thoughts on these points! -Laina
 
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