European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[Craig_Sutter]

There are several items I'd include if projects had somewhat more flexibility... they don't fit as wonders, because they weren't buildings...

Domesday Book
Bayeaux Tapestry
Book of Kells
Lindisfarne Bible
etc.

I'm not certain if wonders need be actual structures of not, though. In vanilla Civ, for instance, Heroic Epic is a tale, like the Illiad, not a building. Mind you, that is a National Wonder, still, it does make one wonder .

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Theodosian Walls... how about free fortified walls in every city, instead of +10% in each. And it should be earlier in the tech tree, as they were built near or even before the mod start (although they were improved). Perhaps there should be Theodosian Walls, +100%, free Stone Walls in every city, and Improved Theodsian Walls +200%, and free fortified walls in every city (prereq building - Theodosian Walls, and needs Copper and Fortification Tech - same as fortified walls).

I assume both Theodosian and Carcasonne Walls require Stone resource... perhaps Carcasonne should also require copper to be consistant with Fortified Wall building.

 

[Masri]

It doesn't support it, just like it doesn't support the Armenian I am translating. You have to use English letters to get the required sound.

The point is to improve on the basic diplomacy and to give the mod a little more variety and flavor.

I think the idea is that the language plus English transalation will both come out... correct me if I'm wrong.

oh, I see...so we just translate how it sounds like in english and add a translation after it. well it can get awkward when you try to use some characters not in english alphabet but it will have to do.

by the way, which leader are you supposed to translate lines from? or do we just make up our own lines?

 

[Drtad]

There are several items I'd include if projects had somewhat more flexibility... they don't fit as wonders, because they weren't buildings...

Domesday Book
Bayeaux Tapestry
Book of Kells
Lindisfarne Bible
etc.

I'm not certain if wonders need be actual structures of not, though. In vanilla Civ, for instance, Heroic Epic is a tale, like the Illiad, not a building. Mind you, that is a National Wonder, still, it does make one wonder .

But the Holy Lance is different since there are four of them and there are famous buildings that hold them. I don't think the Krakow lance should be represented since it is just a copy of the Vienna Lance. There should be a wonder for each Lance. For example, The Gift of Bayezid could be the Vatican Lance wonder, Geghard (which could be a wonder anyway) should be the wonder for the Armenian Lance, and I don't know what the wonder for the Vienna Lance could be,but I'll think of something.

 

[lshockley]

Hello All !

Re: Holy Lance:

I like Drtad's ideas for the Holy Lance; however, there are some problems with implementation as envisioned.

First, in the building XML you can't add a free promotion for all cities, only for the host city. Also, I don't think there's a way to remove a free promotion once it's been awarded, and likewise, I don't think you can remove a building once it's built. Also, I don't think a bonus can grant a promotion. (Not sure about these - does anybody know otherwise?)

Here are some alternatives:
1)We could make each of the 3 Holy Lance Wonders provide a unique Holy Lance resource, which is required to cheaply build a building that grants the "blessed" promotion. This way, if the Holy Lance resource is traded away, no new free promotion buildings can be built. I would also suggest that we put an obsolete tech on the building.

2) Each Holy Lance Wonder could provide the "blessed" promotion in the city in which it is built. Each Holy Lance Wonder also generates a unique Holy Lance resource, which allows the owner to build a special Holy Lance unit that starts with the blessed promotion. Actually, we'd probably need a variety of Holy Lance units to keep them competitive as techs progress.

These are just ideas for fitting Drtad's suggestion within the limitations of the existing XML. Of course, if anyone knows how to add new XML attributes, anything is possible,

Drtad, what are your ideas for the "blessed" promotion?

-Laina

 

[lshockley]

Re: Non-Building Buildings:

We actually have a number of non-building buildings, as follows:

Wonders
Conquest of the Arawak
Conquest of the Aztec
Conquest of the Inca
Hanseatic League
Piece of the True Cross

National Wonders
Contact with the Aztec
Contact with the Inca
Contact with the Iroquois
Hansa Memberships (6)
Nat'l & Heroic Epics

Perhaps we should establish a group decision on the inclusion of non-building buildings? It has been said that we decided on no non-building buildings, but, as you can see, we have some nonetheless.

I am personally neutral on the topic and will happily defer to the group consensus. If we decide to be strictly buildings only, I will convert the buildings listed above to actual buildings. Otherwise, the floor can be opened for non-building building ideas.

-Laina

ps... I know I am a late-comer, and I apologize if this topic has already been discussed in great detail. However, I am not clear on our stance, and would appreciate your feedback.

 

[lshockley]

Re: Wonders:

I will leave the Wonders mentioned by Head Serf as they are, and make the other changes I listed.

I fixed Krak de Chevaliers - the problem was use of <iExperience> instead of <iGlobalExperience>.

Before I remove the -1 health from Castle, does anyone know why it caused unhealthiness in the first place? I don't find castles particularly unhealthy myself, and agree with Head Serf in removing it. All three Walls cause unhealthiness as well - was that intended? If so, should Wall wonders cause unhealthiness?

@Craig, It sounds like Theodosian Walls were intended to have a one city effect, as pointed out by Head Serf. Also, I think free walls in every city would be a bit too much!

Currently, Carcassonne, Theodosian Walls, Malbork Castle, and Krak des Chevaliers do not have any bonus prereqs. However, each of them are +100% with stone. We could add prereqs to two of them (Theodosian Walls and Carcassonne, as suggested by Craig), and leave the other two as they are... what do you think?

-Laina

 

[Jet]

This file fixes the problems I had with the small map. I removed the bogus team 0, shifted everything else back one, and deleted all the TeamReveals.

On the large map I saw a problem that the large TAM maps also have: barbs spawning in desert. Civ wasn't designed for huge deserts like that. In every game Saladin was destroyed by them. As Turkey I eventually got fogbusters all through the Syrian desert and a line of units from Gaza to the Red Sea, tricking the barb pathfinding into never approaching me. Meanwhile central European civs kept sending "crusades" of stacks through my territory to take on the barbs. Every once in a while they'd capture one, and a few dozen turns later... it would be recaptured by the barbs. I know that for animals you can control the terrain they spawn on. Or you might find a way to eliminate random barb spawning and skip straight to barb cities.

Speaking of map sizes, by setting the large map to default to epic or marathon I think you'll balance things more the way they're supposed to be. Of course people should play however they want but by design marathon balances huge.

 

[Kopiano]

Greetings, Head Serf!
I didn't read trough all 33 pages, but if you still need hungarian translations/diplomacy texts, don't hesitate, let me know!

Kopiano

 

[Head Serf]

@ Masri 2/20 :

oh, I see...so we just translate how it sounds like in english and add a translation after it. well it can get awkward when you try to use some characters not in english alphabet but it will have to do.

by the way, which leader are you supposed to translate lines from? or do we just make up our own lines?

Currently every leader uses the same diplomacy text, mostly the same that the game comes with for general texts. You can translate it directly from what it is in the game currently, or even better, you can have the leader say something that fits them culturally or personally. For instance, in vanilla Civ4 Montezuma talks about sacrifice or Mao mentions communist China. If you want to know what needs to be translated, I'll gladly write-up the list. And the Egyptian leader is going to be Saladin.

@ Drtad 2/20 :

But the Holy Lance is different since there are four of them and there are famous buildings that hold them. I don't think the Krakow lance should be represented since it is just a copy of the Vienna Lance. There should be a wonder for each Lance. For example, The Gift of Bayezid could be the Vatican Lance wonder, Geghard (which could be a wonder anyway) should be the wonder for the Armenian Lance, and I don't know what the wonder for the Vienna Lance could be,but I'll think of something.

My worry is that there will be too many wonders in the game. Maybe after we get the new BuildingsInfo we should test it and see if new wonders will fit in.

@ lshockley 2/20 :

First, in the building XML you can't add a free promotion for all cities, only for the host city. Also, I don't think there's a way to remove a free promotion once it's been awarded, and likewise, I don't think you can remove a building once it's built. Also, I don't think a bonus can grant a promotion. (Not sure about these - does anybody know otherwise?)

You're right, it's very limited what can be done.

Perhaps we should establish a group decision on the inclusion of non-building buildings? It has been said that we decided on no non-building buildings, but, as you can see, we have some nonetheless.

It doesn't really matter to me I guess. My real worry is that we'll have too many wonders.

I fixed Krak de Chevaliers - the problem was use of <iExperience> instead of <iGlobalExperience>.

I don't know how I made that mistake.

Before I remove the -1 health from Castle, does anyone know why it caused unhealthiness in the first place? I don't find castles particularly unhealthy myself, and agree with Head Serf in removing it. All three Walls cause unhealthiness as well - was that intended? If so, should Wall wonders cause unhealthiness?

Really, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for these things to cause unhealthiness. Buildings such as forges and mints should cause unhealthiness.

Currently, Carcassonne, Theodosian Walls, Malbork Castle, and Krak des Chevaliers do not have any bonus prereqs. However, each of them are +100% with stone. We could add prereqs to two of them (Theodosian Walls and Carcassonne, as suggested by Craig), and leave the other two as they are... what do you think?

Agreed. And thank you for all of the work you've been putting into the buildings and wonders!

@ Jet 2/21 :

This file fixes the problems I had with the small map. I removed the bogus team 0, shifted everything else back one, and deleted all the TeamReveals.

On the large map I saw a problem that the large TAM maps also have: barbs spawning in desert. Civ wasn't designed for huge deserts like that. In every game Saladin was destroyed by them. As Turkey I eventually got fogbusters all through the Syrian desert and a line of units from Gaza to the Red Sea, tricking the barb pathfinding into never approaching me. Meanwhile central European civs kept sending "crusades" of stacks through my territory to take on the barbs. Every once in a while they'd capture one, and a few dozen turns later... it would be recaptured by the barbs. I know that for animals you can control the terrain they spawn on. Or you might find a way to eliminate random barb spawning and skip straight to barb cities.

Speaking of map sizes, by setting the large map to default to epic or marathon I think you'll balance things more the way they're supposed to be. Of course people should play however they want but by design marathon balances huge.

Thank you! And I haven't seen the Egyptians lose much more than one city to the barbs in a long time...

@ Kopiano 2/21 :

Greetings, Head Serf!
I didn't read trough all 33 pages, but if you still need hungarian translations/diplomacy texts, don't hesitate, let me know!

Kopiano

Yes, we still need Hungarian translation. I gave some information in my response to Masri, and if you have any questions or want the diplo information, just ask.

 

[timberwoolf]

I must say that I don't like the music in the mod too much, there is too much of christian and religious music there.

You probably forgot that there were a lot of folk, national music in the middle ages, a lot of happy and funny songs in Latin especially, and I think that such music will sound really great if it will be put in these mod.
(drolls is a good example of the music I'm talking about).

 

[Broken Hawk]

@lania

Here is my understanding of the Dome of the Rock:

It is a Muslim mosque and has been since the Middle Ages. Some of the confusion may arise from the following debatable information.

Muslims believe this is the place from where Gabriel took Mohammad to Heaven.

Christians (I think) and Jews believe the rock is where Abraham was prepared to sacrifice Issac at God's bidding.

Muslims believe it was Ishmael rather than Issac, Abraham's actual firstborn by the concubine Hagar.

Finally, Jews believe the rock was the location of the holy of holies in the Temple destroyed by the Romans.

 

[Drtad]

I must say that I don't like the music in the mod too much, there is too much of christian and religious music there.

You probably forgot that there were a lot of folk, national music in the middle ages, a lot of happy and funny songs in Latin especially, and I think that such music will sound really great if it will be put in these mod.
(drolls is a good example of the music I'm talking about).

I agree, but to be more specific, the music is mostly only Western European Catholic. I wouldn't mind hearing some Greek, Armenian, and Islamic themes in the mod as well. Or at least some type of Eastern music.

My ideas on the Holy Lance:

Forget about it being a resource, that was a bad idea. I think that there should be two Catholic wonders for the Lance, The Gift of Bayezid representing the Vatican Lance, the Schatzkammer (unless you can think of something better) for the Vienna Lance, and for the Orthodox Lance, you can have Geghard for the Armenian Lance. In the city where this Lance wonder has been built (the first two requiring Catholicism and the last Orthodoxy) all units get a zealot or blessed promotion which gives a combat bonus due to the fact that at the Siege of Antioch, the discovery of a so called Holy Lance gave all the Crusaders the morale boost they needed to win over a superior force, so I think a combat bonus should be appropriate.

 

[lshockley]

Hello All !

I have removed the -1 health from Castle and all Walls, and have added Stone as a prereq bonus for Carcassonne and Theodosian Walls.

Regarding the Hansa Memberships:
Here is a suggested tech requirement and prereq bonus for each of the six memberships:
Hansa / Tech / Bonus Required
Hansa Membership - Wool / Weaving / Sheep
Hansa Membership - Textiles / Weaving / Dye or Cotton
Hansa Membership - Foodstuffs / Preservation / Salt or Fish
Hansa Membership - Silk / Silk Road / Silk
Hansa Membership - Fur / Guilds / Fur
Hansa Membership - Coin / Banking / Silver or Gold

Any thoughts?

@Broken Hawk - Thank you for that explanation.

@Head Serf - I'm happy to work on buildings - they're my favorite to mod anyway!

-Laina

 

[lshockley]

Hello All !

I have an idea for the Contact / Conquest buildings. I've been thinking that it doesn't make much sense that everybody in the world can have contact with these civilizations (and obtain the bonuses that come with that contact). Also, if everybody can build the national wonders, then everybody has access to the free bonus (maize or fur), which (in my opinion) devalues the free bonus.

So, here's my suggestion:
Contact Aztec/Inca/Iroquois:
+1 trade route, free bonus (1) - Maize (Aztec/Inca), Fur (Iroquois)
Hybrid Wonder - Limited to 3 (of each) in world

Conquest Aztec/Inca/Arawak:
Aztec/Inca requires Contact
+1 trade route, free bonus (1) - Slave (Aztec/Arawak), Gold (Inca)
World Wonder
Another benefit to limiting the Contact to 3: less chance of somebody building "Contact" after "Conquest" has already been built.

What do you guys think?

@Head Serf - I think these were your brainchildren, so I'm particularly interested in your response. Does this modification still achieve your initial purpose in adding them?

Now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps we can do the same with the Hansa Memberships - limit the number of memberships available to 3 in the world for each?

-Laina

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Rather than a Silk Road Hansa, I'd do a Shipping Hansa with Pilotage tech required since I don't think Silk was a big trade item for that area. No bonus required.

I like the idea of limiting the wonders to 3 each. It makes it a bit more tactical.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Some possible units:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208675

 

[Head Serf]

Hello All !

I have removed the -1 health from Castle and all Walls, and have added Stone as a prereq bonus for Carcassonne and Theodosian Walls.

Regarding the Hansa Memberships:
Here is a suggested tech requirement and prereq bonus for each of the six memberships:
Hansa / Tech / Bonus Required
Hansa Membership - Wool / Weaving / Sheep
Hansa Membership - Textiles / Weaving / Dye or Cotton
Hansa Membership - Foodstuffs / Preservation / Salt or Fish
Hansa Membership - Silk / Silk Road / Silk
Hansa Membership - Fur / Guilds / Fur
Hansa Membership - Coin / Banking / Silver or Gold

Any thoughts?

@Broken Hawk - Thank you for that explanation.

@Head Serf - I'm happy to work on buildings - they're my favorite to mod anyway!

-Laina

Good, I like those changes a lot. However, just as Craig_Sutter mentioned, Silk was not a big trade resource of the area. Maybe replace it with beeswax or wheat, as those two items were traded in the League.

I have an idea for the Contact / Conquest buildings. I've been thinking that it doesn't make much sense that everybody in the world can have contact with these civilizations (and obtain the bonuses that come with that contact). Also, if everybody can build the national wonders, then everybody has access to the free bonus (maize or fur), which (in my opinion) devalues the free bonus.

This would probably make more sense. I think that limiting it to a half-national, half-world wonder (3 globally) is for the best. Along with this though, the cost should be increased. Maybe to 500 or 600 for contacts and 300 for conquests. The cost increase should have been done regardless of other changes though.

 

[Drtad]

Wasn't amber the big thing to trade in the Baltics? Or could I be mistaken.

 

[lshockley]

Regarding Hansa memberships:

I think I like Craig's idea best for a Shipping membership, no bonus req. The others have bonus requirements, so this lets a resource-poor civ in on the game (assuming they are quick enough). Everybody agreed?

Also, what does the Hansa Membership bonus do? It doesn't look like it has any effects in BonusInfos. Now that they are more specific, I can add production double-speeds and health or happiness for bulidings?

-Laina