1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Everything about Corruption: C3C edition

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by alexman, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. anarres

    anarres anarchist revolutionary

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    6,069
    Location:
    www.civ3duelzone.com
    Thanks alexman! At last somewhere to point people to. :thumbsup:
     
  2. akots

    akots Poet

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,981
    Location:
    Moscow-Houston, Russia-USA
    Ok, I will try to test that with maximum number of cities which is possible to squeeze in, either at OCP (more or less accurate match of AI city placement) or 3 tiles apart from each other (aggressive early expansion by many players), on the area corresponding to (total area)/(number of players) for overall productivity relatively to tech rate with and without FP at current default OCN/Tech rate. This might take a long time (at least a week or 10 days with my current schedule at work) even if I limit it to tiny and huge maps and Democracy/Chieftain/no Ni. During this I will also try to get optimal position for FP for overall productivity. The point is to understand whether rank corruption being dependent on unnormalized distance contributes to total corruption/tech rate/optimal FP location and what would be relationship between distance/rank components in these two cases. Or have you done something similar already?

    However, the results would be difficult to extrapolate to larger territories because in this case it appears that Ni/Government (especially Communism) would change a lot since 90% maximum is reached relatively sooner on tiny map than on huge and it is not clear how corruption would behave during expansion beyond initially assigned area on intermediate size maps.
     
  3. alexman

    alexman King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    789
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    akots, that sounds like too much work, and I don't yet even understand the reason you want corruption to scale perfectly with map size. Even if you make it so that rank corruption scales with map size by changing the OCN for each map, it would then depend on the percentage of water on each map, wouldn't it?

    There are many other things whose effectiveness is map-dependent in Civ3: most of the civ traits, fast vs slow units, ships, Wonders, tech rate, et cetera. Why can't the extent of corruption also be one of those elements of the game that depends on the map? I don't see any problem with that.
     
  4. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,108
    Location:
    Pennsyltukey, USA
    Great article!! :goodjob:

    this statement struck me as fairly important:

    Alexman, this is probably a stupid question/observation, but in terms of gameplay mechanics, this would mean that if I were to set up a civ with a moderate to dense core build (distance 4 to 6 ring) with a well spaced outer core (say, dist 12 to 16 from palace in one 90 degree quad from the palace), I could build the forbidden palace in the inner core, then build or rush the palace in the outer core and achieve low corruption around the FP.

    Is this observation on-track or am I missing something?

    FP=Forbidden Palace
    OP= Original Palace
    NP= New Palace
    x x x x
    x OP x x
    x FP x NP x
    x x x
    x

    This layout should cause low rank corruption around the FP and low distance corruption all around, right? Around the new palace, I could build courthouses and police stations. Once completed, I could then rotate the location of the palace around the FP by 60 to 90 degrees with a build or rush and start over. This would give me "pods" around the FP that would have good corruption reducing improvements (and thus are productive) while keeping the core intact throughout the game.
     
  5. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    Thank you for this great article. Also nice that the people who made this great game gave you some inside information to fill in the last missing pieces. Great work. :goodjob:
     
  6. TedJackson

    TedJackson Cunning old Celt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    2,393
    Location:
    UK
    From (in-game) experience it's no longer a good plan to build the FP close to the capital and then leader jump the palace to the far end of your starting continent (1.15b large map, continents). Corrution in the original core is way higher than you would expect.


    Ted
     
  7. Longasc

    Longasc Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    Hello, I read from the formula that Facism, Republic AND Democracy have the same corruption.

    Is this true or am I mistaken?

    BTW: If anyone has a good page/link where all benefits and so on of different governments are listed in numbers? I do not know much besides that workers are 200% effective in Democracy and that corruption is SAID to be the lowest. Does democracy has extra production or so, and if, how much???
     
  8. alexman

    alexman King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    789
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Fascism and Republic have the same corruption.
    Democracy gets the same rank corruption as those two as well, but it has 25% less distance corruption.
     
  9. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Where Triton meets the Amish
    Alexman, just had someone show me this thread today. Great work! I had it backward on which one (rank or distance) got affected by building the FP. Thanx for setting me straight on this.
    :thanx:
     
  10. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    Huh?

    If I've understood the formulas correctly, then both rank and distance corruption get affected by building the forbidden palace. The distance corruption of the cities closer to the forbidden palace then the original palace gets lower and the rank corruption of all cities gets lower as the optimal city number (Nopt) increases.

    OK, in communism there is no effect of the forbidden palace on distance corruption.
     
  11. Longasc

    Longasc Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    I would say the more cities you have, your choices narrow down to Communism - it is incredibly effective in C3C 1.15b. Above 80-100 cities -> you will benefit greatly.
     
  12. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Where Triton meets the Amish
    Looking back at Alexman's first post:
    *******
    The rank corruption component depends on the rank (R) and optimal city number (Nopt) of each city.
    In a non-communal type of government all cities of an empire are ranked in order of distance to the capital, starting at zero for the capital itself. If several cities have the same distance to the capital, they are ranked in order of founding, and if they also have the same date of founding, they are ranked by their order in the database. In a communal form of government, all cities have the same rank, which is half the total number of cities in the empire, rounded down.
    *******
    If I read this correctly, the rank corruption only depends on distance from the capital, not the (capital or FP). I'm learning, if anyone can help me understand this better please do.
     
  13. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    You are right that the rank corruption of a city is independant from the distance to the forbidden palace. But the mere existance of the forbidden palace will reduce rank corruption in all not totally corrupt cities.

    If you look closely at the formula:

    Nopt = max(OCN * (L/100 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe + 0.25*Ni), 1)

    you'll notice the factor Gp*Nwe of the OCN in this formula. This factor is added when you build the forbidden palace (or secret police station). So when you've build the FP, the Nopt of every city increases and thus the rank corruption of every city decreases.

    It doesn't decrease the rank corruption of cities build close to the forbidden palace more than others, so if you build the forbidden palace far from the original palace, then its benefits of decreasing distance corruption locally are lost because rank corruption is already too high (above 100%). So build it among moderately corrupted cities to have the largest benefit.
     
  14. Longasc

    Longasc Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    Roland is right, I placed my FP like I was used to in times where it produced a second core very far away.

    Thus the FP city became uncorrupt, but nothing else at all (Monarchy).

    This somewhat reduces the absolute need for Great Leaders to actually built a FP in time a lot, as the cities that would have been better would not have needed too long to build it either.
     
  15. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Where Triton meets the Amish
    Thanx, I think I understand it better now, and also, the implications for where to put the FP. I followed your suggestion in the Rise of Rome scenario by putting the FP in southern Gaul. It's working well, reducing corruption significantly in nearby cities.
     
  16. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,108
    Location:
    Pennsyltukey, USA
    Thanks for the detailed explaination on the Rank corruption! :) This was the part of the equation that was fuzzy for me.
     
  17. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    You're welcome, but it is just very carefully reading the great work of alexman et al. Although some feeling for what effects mathematical formulas have is usefull. ;)
     
  18. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,108
    Location:
    Pennsyltukey, USA
    ha! so true! Alexman's work is very thorough, just a problem with my reading skills. In RL I utilize free-body diagrams, stress/strain equations, simplified FEA analysis (simple just because a human can do it), etc. etc. and yet this equation to describe a condition in a game was giving me fits! :lol: just goes to show how important it is to carefully read something and not just glance thru it. :D
     
  19. Longasc

    Longasc Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    I always admire how he re-engineered the formula out of the game at all.

    Perhaps will alexman's C3C corruption FAQ be a corruption reducing small wonder in Civ4?
     
  20. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Messages:
    4,108
    Location:
    Pennsyltukey, USA
    Does anyone know if Alexman's equations hold up in version 1.15b? Also, how do you calculate the baseline OCN for custom maps? Is it based on map size or does the creator determine it?
     

Share This Page