Evo Morales' govt eliminates illiteracy in Bolivia

[Mise]

Right. So why exactly are you taking this bloke straight on his word? Is it perhaps because you happen to like him and his policies?

Fantastic logic.

Exactly... If it was George Bush or Tony Blair saying this about some IMF funded neoliberal capitalist country RRW would be calling a spade a spade just like the rest of us. I wonder how trusting RRW was of Thatcher or Pinochet on Chilean development in the 1970s and 80s?

 

[RedRalph]

OK, fair enhopugh, dont take his word for it. Out of a matter of interest, whose word would be good enough for ye? do you trust the US govt's word on how much illiteracy there is in America? the british? Japanese? I suppose you dont take their words either?

 

[Mise]

OK, fair enhopugh, dont take his word for it. Out of a matter of interest, whose word would be good enough for ye? do you trust the US govt's word on how much illiteracy there is in America?

On illiteracy? Yes.

the british?

On illiteracy? Yes.

Japanese?

On illiteracy? Yes.

But that's mainly because the US, UK and Japanese government's literacy figures hold up to international standards, and are backed up by transparent, audited statistics. If the UK government claimed that literacy was 65%, or 153%, I would not believe them, unless they presented evidence to back that up.

 

[RedRalph]

On illiteracy? Yes.

On illiteracy? Yes.

On illiteracy? Yes.

But that's mainly because the US, UK and Japanese government's literacy figures hold up to international standards, and are backed up by transparent, audited statistics. If the UK government claimed that literacy was 65%, or 153%, I would not believe them, unless they presented evidence to back that up.

I assume you have seen and verified those figures yourself, and are satisfied by their claims. what exactly about Bolivia's stats dosent hold up to your scrutiny?

 

[Mise]

I assume you have seen and verified those figures yourself, and are satisfied by their claims.

I'm satisfied by independently verified statistics held to internationally recognised standards, yes.

what exactly about Bolivia's stats dosent hold up to your scrutiny?

The only statistic I saw was that Bolivia's literacy rate in a 2001 census was 86%. What statistics did you see in the article?

 

[Yeekim]

That's fantastic! And with the news that the cholera epidemic is over in Zimbabwe, looks like things are looking up for the developing world!

ROFLMAO!
EDIT: Still, even if he did not manage to make Bolivia completely illiteracy-free, that was a step in right direction and deserves accolades. However, to present such step as a proof of superiority of socialism is seriously stretching it.

 

[RedRalph]

ROFLMAO!
EDIT: Still, even if he did not manage to make Bolivia completely illiteracy-free, that was a step in right direction and deserves accolades. However, to present such step as a proof of superiority of socialism is seriously stretching it.

I never said it was. I made the point that socialist governments have a reall good track record on this. they tend to increase literacy dramatically within a very short time of taking power in a country.

 

[RedRalph]

I'm satisfied by independently verified statistics held to internationally recognised standards, yes.

OK, fair enough, before I started this thread, how much exactly did you know baout literacy rates in Japan, the US and UK and who has or has not verified them? Be honest please.

The only statistic I saw was that Bolivia's literacy rate in a 2001 census was 86%. What statistics did you see in the article?

The same ones you did. Do you believe the 2001 claim out of a matter of interest?

 

[Mise]

OK, fair enough, before I started this thread, how much exactly did you know baout literacy rates in Japan, the US and UK

I know they're all >99%. I think the UK is 99.7%, meaning there are about 180,000 British adults who can't read or write.

and who has or has not verified them? Be honest please.

All statistics produced by the ONS follow internationally recognised standards, are audited by independent bodies, and are freely available for public scrutiny. Statistics on literacy are particularly easy to compile, since every schoolchild does standardised tests in English, Maths and Science. Furthermore, the ONS is itself an independent body with no influence from the government. This arrangement was to ensure that official statistics are not biased by politics.

However, there is a difference between statistics produced by the ONS, and statistics produced by government ministries, such as the Home Office's statistics on crime. These are naturally prone to statistical mangling to show the government in the best possible light. I feel less inclined to trust these statistics, than those produced by the ONS.

That being said, Evo Morales's speech is not a statistic, so I'm not sure why you're so interested in my geeky love for statistics.

The same ones you did.

I'm glad you agree that there is no evidence of Bolivian literacy rates, beyond the 2001 census.

Do you believe the 2001 claim out of a matter of interest?

I don't know how the census was carried out, or how transparent the data was, so I can't answer that question. But my understanding is that censuses are fairly thorough and comprehensive, so while I can't answer your question, I'm happy to work on the assumption that it's accurate and meaningful.

 

[RedRalph]

OK Mise I'll cut to the point (to be fair, you have directly answerted the questions I've asked, which not everyone does), on the balance of probabilities, have you any serious reason to believe Evo Maroles is lying when he claims his govt has eliminated illiteracty (to the standards described in the BBC article)? If you were going to be forced to bet on it one way or another, and the result would be verified by the standards you accept for the UK etc, do you think he is or is not lying?

 

[Mise]

OK Mise I'll cut to the point (to be fair, you have directly answerted the questions I've asked, which not everyone does), on the balance of probabilities, have you any serious reason to believe Evo Maroles is lying when he claims his govt has eliminated illiteracty (to the standards described in the BBC article)?

He's a politician.

If you were going to be forced to bet on it one way or another, and the result would be verified by the standards you accept for the UK etc, do you think he is or is not lying?

I wouldn't bet willingly either way. If I were forced to bet, I'd bet against literacy being eliminated in Bolivia.

 

[RedRalph]

He's a politician.

True...

I wouldn't bet willingly either way. If I were forced to bet, I'd bet against literacy being eliminated in Bolivia.

what makes you lean towards it not being true (by the 96% standard)?

 

[Mise]

I don't know anything about the Bolivian education system, or what Morales has done to improve literacy rates. The only thing I can go on is statistics for other countries in South America with similar characteristics. From that, it seems unlikely that Bolivia's literacy rate should be >96%.

 

[RedRalph]

I don't know anything about the Bolivian education system, or what Morales has done to improve literacy rates. The only thing I can go on is statistics for other countries in South America with similar characteristics. From that, it seems unlikely that Bolivia's literacy rate should be >96%.

you do know chavez did something similar, though? why couldnt Bolivia?

 

[Mise]

you do know chavez did something similar, though? why couldnt Bolivia?

I'm sure they could, I just wouldn't bet on it.

 

[plarq]

The problem is that Latin America has a good literacy base for the start. For example, I'm quite surprised by the literacy of China and Vietnam in the 70s.

Kudos to Bolivian people.

 

[RedRalph]

I'm sure they could, I just wouldn't bet on it.

Well, I would. Just bragging rights. Care to take me up?

 

[Ecofarm]

Fantastic logic. 'If a politician we dont like says something it cant be true.'

And thus you people refuse to believe that the Iraq war was about freedom, even though he said so in every weekly address. EVERY WEEKLY ADDRESS and you people are all "oh, that was played up after the WMDs were not there!!" As if Bush did not say it 50 times the year before the invasion.

No, you prefer to invent reasons he never mentioned - completely ignoring what he said ad nauseum.

If Bush gave a speech in front of a sign that said "Illiteracy is over" in Bolivia, you would be spazing. You would be all "OHHH! PrOPAGANDA!!!"

-----

Anyway, the reason that poor socialist countries are good at this is because they have a glut of low-qualification teachers. There are plenty of people in Bolivia who can teach spanish but very few who can teach brain surgery or rocket science. So, they do what they can and play it up as if such an accomplishment compares to a small percent of illiteracy and many doctors. While the first world trains astronauts and nobel prize winning scientists, Bolonia makes sure everyone can say at least 1 incomplete sentence - and claims victory. Note, Bolivia is the poorest country in S. America. Perhaps if it spent more time plowing fields and less time in makeshift classrooms, less would starve. Sometimes, an informal education is way more important; I've seen families go under because they sent a kid to elementary school. So, I'm not even sure it is the best thing to do in the first place. It's probably an attempt to solidify state-fed propaganda.

1. Get even the children who will never leave their subsistance farm to read (wasting valuable family time).
2. Spread state propaganda.
3. ?
4. Profit.

 

[Mise]

Well, I would. Just bragging rights. Care to take me up?

I'd honestly rather bet money than bragging rights My ego is far more fragile than my wallet Anyway, like I said, I wouldn't willingly bet either way.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Sometimes you can tell exactly how a thread is going to go down before you even click on it. Can't we all just reserve judgement on the veracity of this claim, rather than rehearsing the tired old evil commie vs capatalist pig routine?