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Executive Order: Immediate Turnchat

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Democracy Game II' started by ice2k4, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    That's exactly the point I'm making here. You also probably noticed that after the Chieftain declared that a special session someone DID object. Too bad though - even though he commented 4 minutes after the post saying "post if you object!", he wasn't in time.

    Yup, and I'll be objecting from now on since I now know the timeframe the current government will be working on.

    1 day. Just 1 day. Would that REALLY have caused problems?

    -- Ravensfire
     
  2. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Low detail, low everything actually, to keep it running.

    Now I'm of the read the other pages off this thread.
     
  3. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Got a problem, just blame the chats :rolleyes:
     
  4. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

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    Just to say:

    1) The only elected Officer in charge (because Elder still lacks a city to rule)
    gave instructions to perform one quarter of turn.
    Is that an abuse of power? Too fast a speed? If that is beyond Chieftain
    power, then what for is he here?

    2) The leader just played his role: he leaded. And I think he should have done
    more, that is, give more instructions to make game go on.
    (Or a quarter of turn is too much for all these threads,posts and polls?).

    3) The move in itself, I think it was poor, because didn't help us to see how
    good (or not) current location is; of course, scout can now move SE, but
    just one tile of radius is revealed.

    4) Someone spoke about a coup. If this happens now I'll vote against.
    (And no, I do not know the person, or player, in charge).

    Best regards,
     
  5. robboo

    robboo Deity

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    i want to throw my 2 cents in.

    I have no problem with the executive order. I have a problem with not letting any one have time to voice their concerns. For example...why did we go north..checking out the "coast' and the silver should have been considered. The timing of 2 minutes to play then 2 minutes to object frankly stinks. I dont care if you had a family emergency...you could have said so and asked for a few days. Losing a day or 3 at this stage wont hurt.. Going a whole month like in the first game with only playing 2 sessions would hurt. taking the power from the people...will hurt and we will be back to just the officials playing(and then not enough of them either)

    I am tempted to coup...but I cant fault you for someone elses prompt actions. Lets just slow down and not make major decisions due over the Saturday/Sunday time frame. I guess I will have to start thinking like a lawyer and try to draft something to slow down the "0 turn" TCs
     
  6. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    Since this has obviously cause quite a stir, I'm not going to respond to every post individually.

    In the matter of calling the emergency chat, and citizens claiming there wasn't enough time to discuss:

    Yes there was. There was actually 2 days worth of discussion and no poll. There was a whole thread on it. IT IS NOT THE OFFICIAL'S JOB TO NAME THE THREADS. If you don't read every thread, I completely understand, but maybe checking the first post of every thread could help. If you feel that the title "capitol start" or whatever it was did not give enough description, and you skipped over it because you were either too lazy to read the first post, or just didn't have enough time, I'm sorry, but the discussion was there. Also, screenshots were up as soon as the creation save file was posted. Again, you can't hold be responsible because you didn't find the screenshots, which were in the same post the save was in.

    In the matter of me calling the emergency turnchat:

    Firstly everything I did was legal. I had no intention to "play it without the citizen's consent" or anything like that, whether you feel that way or not. It was not meant to set a precedent, and the reason for calling it was simply to keep the game moving. The game gets pretty slow when you've gone four turnchats, and still haven't pressed enter (game creation, first scout move, second scout move, settle city.) A lot of support was shown with no objection to the emergency turnchat. It was proposed a day or two earlier than I actually executed it. I would of executed it even earlier, if it hadn't been for my grandmother having a stroke. The idea was proposed not only in the discussion thread, but as well as the dp thread.

    In the matter of not being enough time to object:
    I agree with you. There was not enough time to object, and I am truly sorry for this. When I was midway sending a pm to dutchfire, informing him to wait a little first, and then posting a duplicate of that in the instruction thread, he had already posted got it. At that point I realized whats done is done. Although he may of passed over my post time, not realizing I posted only two minutes ago, I take full blame for it, as I should of included that in my unedited first post (with instructions.)

    If the citizens feel the 1/2 turn movement of a scout made in an emergency turnchat requires a coup, then go as far as you want with it. If you realized I withheld my decision to call a second emergency turnchat, and will not be calling one again, due to the controversy it causes. If everyone was against emergency turnchats, I assumed there would of been limitations stated in initiatives, acts or clauses
     
  7. Falcon02

    Falcon02 General

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    My two cents....

    Given the importance of this opening turn, I feel a more definitive decision of where to move the Scout should have been made, with maybe a 24 hour poll. At the close of which the "Emergency" session would be scheduled.

    City placement should be similarly polled, pick the best/most popular few options and poll them.

    I don't think it's that people are "against emergency sessions" it's just,

    A.) 1 day isn't a large delay in of it self.
    B.) The time between the announcement of the session and where the Chieftain wanted the Scout to move, and the time the session was played out was much too small.
    C.) While there was previous discussion there was no clear preference where to move the scout. At least a 24 hour poll should have been included showing the best options. The session could then be performed shortly (minutes) after the closure of that poll if need be, so long as the actions of the session complied with the poll.


    EDIT: That said.... a few points.... the only reason why such a "minor" move i so important right now is our start can greatly effect the game. As such there are very few minor decisions, and citizens need to review and have a say in such decisions.

    Secondly, we should move on and live and learn. Either create a new initiative to cover "emergency sessions" or just try to have greater self restraint in the future.
    A coup is NOT necessary. I also feel major legal wrangling to assign blame, guilt, or punishment is NOT necessary.
     
  8. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    After the few days of discussion, noone polled anything, so it didn't look like much was going to be polled.
     
  9. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    If it is your preference that the citizens post relevant polls, I certainly will do so. I am used to the leaders being active in such matters, however.

    Might I also ask about a research discussion? Such a discussion will be needed soon, and will provide a useful and welcome diversion.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  10. robboo

    robboo Deity

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    This game sure is starting off great...

    IF we are back to "I wont poll....the citizens can do it". Then why do we have officials, lets just have DPs.

    Obviously there was ALOT of different opinions on which way to move as almost everyone who is posting questions the move as well as how it was done. Perhaps a poll would have resulted in a different outcome.

    IN addition the discussion thread had a lot of "well i might ask for" and "you could do a 0 turn TC"...nothing definitive. Most of us left the thread waiting for a poll or more discussion but instead when we return our decision was already made for us. Can you see how thats frustrating
     
  11. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    Moving a scout wouldn't be that much of a bad thing unless it gets killed. This is just a small issue that doesn't really require polling and/or initiatives.

    The scout move was pretty good too. It revealed gold, another happiness resources. Our starting position still leaves much to be desired, but at least it's better than just having silver.
     
  12. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    But you won't use the HoF Mod because it limits others people's participation. So it all boils down to who doesn't get to participate, right? Just like the chats are always timed for the convenience of Americans and screw the rest of the world.

    Way back in DG1 (the Civ III DGI, not the last DG), we decided there would be no turn playing at all without at least 24 hours notice. It does not surprise me that some who supported the move are up in arms about the way it was conducted. It was not an emergency.

    My remark was made in response to the comment made that the movement of the scout could have been discussed during the regularly scheduled play session. That was a very ominous remark from a relatively new player. Try to pay attention DaveShack.

    Read my reply to DaveShack above. There was certainly no indication on our leaderships part to let us all take part in the decision regarding moving the scout in the forums. I jhonestly do not understand the rush to play. We talked and talked for over a month about how to play this DG and already all that is out the window. I suggested continuous play where we'd play a couple turns every day no matter what. NO, that was too fast for everyone. We need to take time and make decisions properly. Then the first decision comes along and in two days a move is rammed down our throat. What a bunch of hypocrites.
     
  13. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    May I point out that the first turnchat of this game was very convenient for Europeans, and not convenient for Americans. It just boils down to the turnplayer, if you want chats in "American Time", vote for people in those timezones, if you want "European" chats, vote for Europeans.
     
  14. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I think we should schedule our next chat for the second Tuesday of next week. The one after that should be when Hell freezes over.
     
  15. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    And in how so was your participation limited. You were welcome to join in on the discussion. Noone said anything I did had to be polled, and you knew that. If you seriously felt your participation would be limited by me making the decision, you should of created a poll.

    And participation being limited by the HoF mod was something that affected participation in a definite way. Mac users would not be allowed to view or play the save unless they bought a new computer, and a new copy of the game. On the other hand, time-frames in which people are online, are too diverse to control, especially with timezones. So stop trying to pry back on old decisions you didn't like, stick to the topic at hand.
     
  16. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    :crazyeye: Barely one turn into the game and this... And I thought donsig's trade of Medicine was bad. :p
     
  17. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    And what if you are in Asia? Abstain? :lol:
     
  18. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    @ordinaryguy Run and vote for yourself and hope you get enough support. Or vote for someone who does for example eveningchats that will be morning chats for you (I don't know how that would work around exactly, but it could be done.) Or just wake up in the middle of the night :p
     
  19. ordinaryguy

    ordinaryguy Back to Civ!

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    Nah my com can't play Civ4 and be on the chat line at the same time :crazyeye: . From what I know, none of the DPs actually plays at sometime near GMT+8. The current DPs have been playing at like 12am (e.g. around 1500GMT) in my timezone but my mom would never allow me to stay up. So, I guess I can't participate when the game is being played then, only during discussions about what to do next.
     
  20. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Can't you play in windowed mode and use the chatroom?
     

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