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Executive Order: Immediate Turnchat

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Democracy Game II' started by ice2k4, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    To not further delay gameplay, I will making my first Executive Order, by calling an immediate and otherwise defined "special", 0 turn turnchat.

    Dutchfire will be playing the save as soon as he receives it. There will be no set time.

    Official Instructions of the Cheftain. Move the the scout 1NE. Immediatley Save and Quit. DO NOT PLAY THE SAVE WHATSOEVER IF ANY CITIZEN POSTS AN OPPOSITION IN THIS THREAD, BEFORE YOU START.

    If anyone opposes this, please state so.
     
  2. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Got it
     
  3. Gaidynne

    Gaidynne Chieftain

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    I oppose!

    While I wholeheartedly agree with the planned move, the procedure for implementing it is totally at odds with the DG's focus of allowing gameplay to be directed by the Citizens.

    This matter should be handled by poll or during a regular DP session.
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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  5. Gaidynne

    Gaidynne Chieftain

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    Not to stir up controversy, but this move was very poorly planned and implemented.

    The suggestion of a variance from our standard play @ 10:15 a.m by Ice, with a request for objections, followed by an indication TWO minutes later that the suggestion would be implemented carries with it the appearance of collusion.

    While I believe that dutchfire was simply following Ice's instructions, the move he made within minutes of the original post gave no realistic opportunity to object.

    It would have been more honest if Ice had simply said that the move was going to be made and that anyone who didn't like it could jump off a cliff. The invitation in Ice's original post that objections be made was hollow as things actually played out, since my objection 4 short minutes later obviously meant nothing.

    We have a procedure in place for playing the saves, including making moves of units. Let's follow that procedure. Variances from it should not be acceptable. Certainly the variance in this instance was no big deal. But it sets a VERY BAD PRECEDENT for the future.
     
  6. Nobody

    Nobody Gangster

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    cool, executive decisions are cool, and gaidynne you could always take it to the courts or even.... Coup
     
  7. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    The first post was made 2 hours earlier. LINK

    Why was this done so quickly.
    Well, let's have a look at what would happen if everything was done very carefully.

    Today Ice announces extra play-session
    1/2 days of discussion
    Scout moves 1 tile in play session.
    1/2 days of discussion
    scout moves another tile
    1/2 days of discussion
    settler moves/settles
    turn 1 finishes after 3/6 days.
    2 days of discussion
    -first real turnchat of about 10 turns.

    That's a lot of time with absolutely nothing happening to keep everybody entertained and happy.
     
  8. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    Sorry to say but that can be objected at every turn discussion, so is this the way turns are going to be played then? What about the entire democratic stuff then?
     
  9. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Well, normally we like to play about 10 turns at a time. That way there's enough to discuss during the next days. After that discussion we can play again, and then we'll need new discussion.

    At the moment, we need to decide on a vital issue, settling our first city, but to do that, we need to scout first, and then discuss. But the move of the scout didn't really have to be discussed that much (in the opinion of Ice).
     
  10. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    Can I stress vital issue and point out that Ice is not the only one playing the game? I know what his position is but I once again say his decision seems to bare hardly any democratic value.
     
  11. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    Firstly, I did no wrong doing in the fact that I could of told everyone to jump off a cliff, unless of course someone overrode my authority via initiative. The discussion has been open for 2 days. Noone polled anything.

    Secondly, although dutchfire got the save a little earlier than I expected, the original post with my intentions, also stating that I would give instructions unless someone objected was made a few hours beforehand.

    Thirdly, the decision was based upon the discussion made by the citizens. Although the citizens did not directly and collectively make the instruction, my instructions were not based on my plans, but my interpretation of the citizen's opinions, and further more, the decision that I found most logical, after reading the arguments.

    Also, many people requested an immediate turnchat, even earlier than today.

    I do admit that I was reluctant to call this immediate play of the save, but by the power the citizen's had invested in me, I found it favorable in the sense that it would keep the game moving. A huge factor of the last demogame that lead to loss of participation, and ultimately the first demogame that was not finished, was the game moving too slowly do to massive polling and waiting. Therefore, within a weeks time, we would of had three turnchats, and still not played one turn. (Creation, Scout Movement, Settler settling.) Although as Chieftain I am in charge of most of the in-game powers, I also am in charge of keeping the participation level high.

    I do not like to think of this as something that will set precedent and I hope this won't have to be done again.
     
  12. Gaidynne

    Gaidynne Chieftain

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    Thank you for the Link, dutchfire.

    However, I don't think it demonstrates that the emergency turnchat was appropriate or well-handled. The linked material by Ice suggests something he may do if people don't respond to his posts.

    But, this thread is where he actually stated his intention and invited responses. He got a response, within FOUR minutes, objecting to his course of action. I would submit that any reasonable person would agree that an objection within 4 minutes is timely and should be considered.

    Unfortunately, it wasn't and couldn't be considered, because you had promptly carried out his Executive Order.

    Again, I don't believe that you and Ice colluded in your actions to deny the Citizens their right to comment on the process and participate in it. Nonetheless, your actions did exactly that. While unit move was not a big deal, it does establish a precedent for future, similar behavior which might be more damaging.

    @Nobody: I agree that this matter could be addressed via a Judicial Review and/or a coup. I am hesitant to initiate either procedure as I believe this episode was simply an earnest effort by Ice and dutchfire to move the game along. However, I am concerned about the precedent this sets and therefore wanted to act as the proverbial "squeaky wheel". I would hope that others weigh in with their thoughts, and that we could all move past this in short order, but still set the tone for the remainder of the game with respect to emergency gameplay sessions.

    Respectfully,

    Gaidynne
     
  13. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Realize that the special session was brought up on Friday and discussed a little bit on that day. There was even a suggestion that Ice play the special session on Saturday, which did not happen. There was also a request by me on Friday in the DP thread based off of suggestions/statements made by others.

    In one of those statements someone stated that the Chieftain could move the scout as he sees fit according to the rules of the Demogame.

    I believe the error, or misunderstanding, is that Ice asked for objections and at the same time told dutchfire to just play the save. Now, I'm just guessing here, but I believe with Ice's current family emergency he was just trying to speed up something he'd been forced to neglect over the weekend. If I'm wrong, I apologize for my mistake.

    Note that this isn't how the game is usually played out. Unfortunately it happened on the first turn with a bunch of new players who are unsure about how the game is played and hoping this isn't the way its supposed to.

    Just my two :gold:, I apologize if my assumptions are incorrect.
     
  14. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Well, this thread did get participation :p
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    That was interesting. :eek:

    A few hours delay would have been more traditional, but I'll admit it got something done.
     
  16. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    Whether this loses me votes or not I could care less. The fact still stands that everything done was legal. Your very much right, that I could of said, hey go jump off a cliff if you don't like it. Small decisions like this in the first place, do not represent the democratic attitude in which this game is played. You will soon come to realize that only big decisions are usually polled, as everything else is delegated to officials. I was trying to be nice by giving citizens a chance to object, but dutchfire saw the thread earlier than I expected. I was about to send him a pm to wait a while before playing if he could, but I checked and he already posted that he started. If you ask the more experienced players, some will agree that the game should not be slowed down, while others will stick to the strict legal sense (you know who you are ;) ) and oppose my actions.

    Edit: Now it was unfortunate that this last week has been extremely hectic for me, and I was not able to devote the normal time I do to the demogame. I would of called the turnchat earlier with more notice if I was able to. Also, for the last 3 days the discussion has been opened, and no poll. By that I assume that the citizens are leaving the decision in my hands, as it has been defined by our law and constitution.
     
  17. Hyronymus

    Hyronymus Troop leader

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    I don't care what the more experienced will think or if you lost some votes. I still find it rather strange to use your power for something you most like could've (or should I say would've?!) done in a little more hours time than you did now. Is time really so scarce then?
     
  18. erikthecelt

    erikthecelt Old, Geezer, Unoriginal

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    We elected Ice to lead. He did.
     
  19. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt due to this statement he made in another thread.

    Emergencies never happen in a timely and considerate matter.
     
  20. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Please create an instruction thread for this session, using the normal format. In other words - the save you used, a post with instructions, and post with the session log and the closing save.

    Also, update the summary thread.

    A special session is still a normal session, and includes the same elements. It's just much faster.

    To those who don't like how it was done, if it's that much of an issue for you, create an initiative that covers how special sessions are done. Quite intentionally, that wasn't done yet.

    -- Ravensfire
     

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