DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Dang. Which way is easier?
Exotic Unit Pack - Mod Collaboration Thread
sman1975
Emperor
Good question! Have tried about 5 methods, and I'm not liking any of them - hard to lock it down air-tight.
About to pass it over to the C&C forum and see if anyone has a fairly fool-proof solution. There just aren't any finished mods that perform the function of bumping up resources when a building is completed. Yields, yes, but not resources. Or replacing buildings once a given tech is researched. But nothing directly related to a certain building being constructed.
About to pass it over to the C&C forum and see if anyone has a fairly fool-proof solution. There just aren't any finished mods that perform the function of bumping up resources when a building is completed. Yields, yes, but not resources. Or replacing buildings once a given tech is researched. But nothing directly related to a certain building being constructed.
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DracoTheGreat
Warlord
If it makes it easier, we could just make it so the CM gives us more camels. Let's say 3 per CM?
And then when the Camel Bazaar is built, that could add 1 extra camel. Not increasing the amount of camels produced by the CM, but adding more by its own self.
Then the Souk can be something like adds production to desert tiles, and every source of camel provides +1 Food, Production and gold?
Would that be easier?
And then when the Camel Bazaar is built, that could add 1 extra camel. Not increasing the amount of camels produced by the CM, but adding more by its own self.
Then the Souk can be something like adds production to desert tiles, and every source of camel provides +1 Food, Production and gold?
Would that be easier?
sman1975
Emperor
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to close out V1,and if I can figure out a way to get the original concept working, can always make that change later. At least the interim solution will keep development moving forward, add a nice "desert" feel to the game, while not compromising stability at all.
I'd recommend setting the CM at 2, then letting the CB add two more. This gets you to 4 per city. Unless you're completely on a desert continent, there will probably only be a few camel available anyways, since there needs to be desert tiles under the cultural control of the city.
May not hurt to let the Souk add 4-5 more, along with the other yield improvements you mentioned. Gets it kind of close to Petra, but in a good way, I think.
I'd also recommend the CB arriving at Gunpowder - which is actually kind of early for the unit, so maybe a small nerf is needed.
I'd recommend setting the CM at 2, then letting the CB add two more. This gets you to 4 per city. Unless you're completely on a desert continent, there will probably only be a few camel available anyways, since there needs to be desert tiles under the cultural control of the city.
May not hurt to let the Souk add 4-5 more, along with the other yield improvements you mentioned. Gets it kind of close to Petra, but in a good way, I think.
I'd also recommend the CB arriving at Gunpowder - which is actually kind of early for the unit, so maybe a small nerf is needed.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Yeah, 2 sounds like a good number to start with. Makes it not-so-OP.
Souk adding 4 - 5 more sounds like a lot, but I'm not too sure. Maybe you could trade them off for money or something. Huh. Adding additional resources increases trade opportunities. Who would've thought? Haha.
Maybe not gunpowder, but printing press. Makes more sense to me.
My thought process is this (and this is only for "accuracy" to how we work as people, not a game requirement.)
The printing press allows other civs to know about this civ in the desert that is selling/showing off camels. That sounds fun. Let's go watch it or whatever.
Souk adding 4 - 5 more sounds like a lot, but I'm not too sure. Maybe you could trade them off for money or something. Huh. Adding additional resources increases trade opportunities. Who would've thought? Haha.
Maybe not gunpowder, but printing press. Makes more sense to me.
My thought process is this (and this is only for "accuracy" to how we work as people, not a game requirement.)
The printing press allows other civs to know about this civ in the desert that is selling/showing off camels. That sounds fun. Let's go watch it or whatever.
sman1975
Emperor
Got it - and agreed. Makes perfect sense, actually. Will add the building now and post a new version soon.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Cool, cool.
sman1975
Emperor
One thing I'd like to include - instead of extra yields forCamel when the Souk is built (which I'm not sure will work due to them not being on the map anywhere), we use a benefit like Neuschwanstein does. When it's build, it would increase gold and food yield in cities that have a CM?
Can also add +1 Food/Gold/Production on desert tiles in the city in which the Souk is built, so there will probably be quite an incentive to build.
Can also add +1 Food/Gold/Production on desert tiles in the city in which the Souk is built, so there will probably be quite an incentive to build.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Yeah, I like that.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Just a heads-up, I won't be able to reply to your comments during the earlier hours of the days throughout the week, as I have school.
So, yeah.
So, yeah.
sman1975
Emperor
No worries. Am posting the last update for today in a couple of minutes. I've tested the individual buildings, units, and resource and it seems to be working as designed. Appreciate your dragging it around and kicking the tires a bit.
Have been thinking....
If we're adding some combination of attack elephants in a similar capacity as the Camels, I'd recommend a name change to the mod. Something along the line of "Exotic Combat Units" or something to that effect. No hurry on that, but once it's posted to Steam it will probably get more attention... and playtesting and often very helpful suggestions on making it even more fun to play.
Have been thinking....
If we're adding some combination of attack elephants in a similar capacity as the Camels, I'd recommend a name change to the mod. Something along the line of "Exotic Combat Units" or something to that effect. No hurry on that, but once it's posted to Steam it will probably get more attention... and playtesting and often very helpful suggestions on making it even more fun to play.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Yeah, I mean, you're working on this mod, you deserve the attention!
I guess you could call it a unit pack. If you're gonna do that, though, maybe more units for later versions would be a good idea perhaps? I don't know. Just a suggestion.
And, I'll look more into modding, so maybe I can help you out as well.
I guess you could call it a unit pack. If you're gonna do that, though, maybe more units for later versions would be a good idea perhaps? I don't know. Just a suggestion.
And, I'll look more into modding, so maybe I can help you out as well.
sman1975
Emperor
Latest version posted.
I agree and appreciate the comments, but unfortunately, I'm limited by the models I can recycle - as I have no ability to create new models. Have tried, and the results/experience just wasn't pretty at all...
I get most of my models from this link: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/categories/civ5-units.128/
But, can usually salvage any unit you find on the Steam Workshop as well. If you see a unit/model you'd like to include, send me a link and I'll figure out if/how I can add it in.
I agree and appreciate the comments, but unfortunately, I'm limited by the models I can recycle - as I have no ability to create new models. Have tried, and the results/experience just wasn't pretty at all...
I get most of my models from this link: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/categories/civ5-units.128/
But, can usually salvage any unit you find on the Steam Workshop as well. If you see a unit/model you'd like to include, send me a link and I'll figure out if/how I can add it in.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Hey, so I think we kinda forgot about the Ghazi's. lol
Oh well, that's for a later version, I guess.
I got the notification for the new update, and have already downloaded it.
Oh well, that's for a later version, I guess.
I got the notification for the new update, and have already downloaded it.
sman1975
Emperor
I was avoiding the Ghazi as a replacement for the Arabian Camel Archer, since that would likely irritate most fans of that civ.
Can always add it as another unit in this mod. No problem.
Can always add it as another unit in this mod. No problem.
DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Ah, ok.
If you do, there is a mod that adds it called the 3rd and 4th unique components mods. (They're separate mods.) You could just use the models from there, I guess.
But hey, thanks for taking your time on this mod! Appreciate it a ton!
If you do, there is a mod that adds it called the 3rd and 4th unique components mods. (They're separate mods.) You could just use the models from there, I guess.
But hey, thanks for taking your time on this mod! Appreciate it a ton!
sman1975
Emperor
I'm actually enjoying putting it together. OTOH, I am a bit limited on time, and have a few other mods that need some fixin'...
So, to better make use of my time, I think I need some clarity on where we're taking this mod.
OK - we have 2 camel-based units, and planning to put a few elephant-based units and supporting buildings, promotions.
Adding the Ghazi is no problem, as it's more straightforward than the camels/elephants were.
Are there any other units you want to add to the mix? If we can roughly define this early, it will greatly help me build the final mod, and save a lot of time on reworking icon atlases, etc. I think what I'm asking for is to get your feedback on the proposed scope of the mod, so I can better plan on how much I can do, based on my limited time and capabilites.
And what is the overall theme of the mod, something like, "Desert Warriors?" Maybe that's the new name? I think when other people are looking for mods to play, they're really looking for the "flavor" the mod adds to the gaming experience. Maybe we should be looking for units/buildings that create and expand the desert theme?
Just thoughts, but I'd appreciate your input on the unit list first - that's the biggest driver on what the time budget will be. Thanks!
So, to better make use of my time, I think I need some clarity on where we're taking this mod.
OK - we have 2 camel-based units, and planning to put a few elephant-based units and supporting buildings, promotions.
Adding the Ghazi is no problem, as it's more straightforward than the camels/elephants were.
Are there any other units you want to add to the mix? If we can roughly define this early, it will greatly help me build the final mod, and save a lot of time on reworking icon atlases, etc. I think what I'm asking for is to get your feedback on the proposed scope of the mod, so I can better plan on how much I can do, based on my limited time and capabilites.
And what is the overall theme of the mod, something like, "Desert Warriors?" Maybe that's the new name? I think when other people are looking for mods to play, they're really looking for the "flavor" the mod adds to the gaming experience. Maybe we should be looking for units/buildings that create and expand the desert theme?
Just thoughts, but I'd appreciate your input on the unit list first - that's the biggest driver on what the time budget will be. Thanks!
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sman1975
Emperor
On the elephants.... I was thinking about using a building called a "Khedda" - buildable only in a city with a worked source of Ivory. It would create say, 2 (?) of a new strategic resource called "elephants." Those elephants would be required to build elephant units, similar to the way we set up Camels. This at least ties these units to a resource on the map, even if the Ivory (luxury) has been traded away, there are still enough elephants remaining to use for units.
Looking at the available artwork (including all the UC mods): there are 3 basic elephant models in BNW/DLC: Naresuan (Indian, rider with spear), War Elephant (Siamese, rider with bow), African Forest (Carthaginian, "castle" with spears). Can probably recolor these to give them a completely different appearance.
Have also found two other models: Woolly Mammoth (no rider, maybe an earlier unit I can add a human "Kumki", or herder), and the Ballista Elephant (rider with large horizontal bow).
This makes 5 basic elephant models to use. I can also add other models (like figures from Swordsman and/or Spearman units) into the basic elephant model to create a new, composite model. It changes the overall appearance and makes them look less like a copy of the original. Could even through in some lions, tigers, bears, wolves, dinosaurs, eagles, and ravens if you really wanted to mix things up...
So, there are more choices for elephant units than the camel models, since we only had 2 of them. No need to use them all, just the most appropriate. Just spitballing right now, but for starters, how about a "class" of 4 units:
1. Mammoth with Kumki (Animal Husbandry/Ancient): slow (move=1), but powerful melee attack. Minor Fearsome Elephant promotion (10% bonus).
2. Naresuan (bow. Horseback Riding/Classical): normal speed (move=2), ranged attack of 1? None or few promotions
3. Ballista Elephant (Engineering?/Classical): normal speed (move=2), ranged attack of 2, siege bonus vs. cities
4. War Elephant (based on the African Elephant, Physics/Medieval, obsolete at Chemistry): mounted speed (move=4) melee unit - with major Fearsome Elephant (25% bonus) promotion, probably bonus vs. troops in open, etc.
A player would still need the Khedda to provide the elephants to build these. Can also add an "Improved Khedda" to replace the basic Khedda and offer more elephants (maybe 3?), but it helps if we tie that to a specific Technology, say Metal Casting (in the middle between Engineering and Physics).
First draft thoughts, no pride of authorship, so all comments welcomed. Also - if we want to add any other units, e.g. Ghazi, etc., let me know how those would look as well. Thanks.
Looking at the available artwork (including all the UC mods): there are 3 basic elephant models in BNW/DLC: Naresuan (Indian, rider with spear), War Elephant (Siamese, rider with bow), African Forest (Carthaginian, "castle" with spears). Can probably recolor these to give them a completely different appearance.
Have also found two other models: Woolly Mammoth (no rider, maybe an earlier unit I can add a human "Kumki", or herder), and the Ballista Elephant (rider with large horizontal bow).
This makes 5 basic elephant models to use. I can also add other models (like figures from Swordsman and/or Spearman units) into the basic elephant model to create a new, composite model. It changes the overall appearance and makes them look less like a copy of the original. Could even through in some lions, tigers, bears, wolves, dinosaurs, eagles, and ravens if you really wanted to mix things up...
So, there are more choices for elephant units than the camel models, since we only had 2 of them. No need to use them all, just the most appropriate. Just spitballing right now, but for starters, how about a "class" of 4 units:
1. Mammoth with Kumki (Animal Husbandry/Ancient): slow (move=1), but powerful melee attack. Minor Fearsome Elephant promotion (10% bonus).
2. Naresuan (bow. Horseback Riding/Classical): normal speed (move=2), ranged attack of 1? None or few promotions
3. Ballista Elephant (Engineering?/Classical): normal speed (move=2), ranged attack of 2, siege bonus vs. cities
4. War Elephant (based on the African Elephant, Physics/Medieval, obsolete at Chemistry): mounted speed (move=4) melee unit - with major Fearsome Elephant (25% bonus) promotion, probably bonus vs. troops in open, etc.
A player would still need the Khedda to provide the elephants to build these. Can also add an "Improved Khedda" to replace the basic Khedda and offer more elephants (maybe 3?), but it helps if we tie that to a specific Technology, say Metal Casting (in the middle between Engineering and Physics).
First draft thoughts, no pride of authorship, so all comments welcomed. Also - if we want to add any other units, e.g. Ghazi, etc., let me know how those would look as well. Thanks.
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DracoTheGreat
Warlord
Yeah, I like the khedda idea. Ties the ivory quite nicely.
I think we could work with the elephants units you provided. The mammoth actually works, as I know the native American tribes used to hunt them. According to a few sources, at least. I think if humans did tame them, they wouldn't hunt them off so quickly. But then again, I suppose climate change would've killed them off, so they wouldn't survive, forcing humans to use the other elephants. Cool. Checks out history wise.
Naresuan's elephant works. I don't know if you want to put it as a bow unit, though. 'Cause, if we already have the camel bowmen, which is a fast, light unit, I think we should get a "heavy" unit, don't you think? The horseman unit is the mid ground between the two classes. We could have this upgrade to the War Elephant.
Ballista elephant is fine being ranged, actually. It's just a heavy ranged unit. Let's have the Ballista elephant upgrade to artillery, as it would keep the ranged promotions for later, and not just have them go to waste if it upgrades.
War Elephant is perfect just the way you suggested.
Now, this provides us with a little problem. Carthage, Siam, and India. For Carthage, we could leave them with the quinquereme and add a cothon (a harbor replacement.) For India, I guess we could add a Sepoy unit, which is basically a rifleman replacement, just stronger and more effective in open terrain (shock I). Siam, however . . . don't really know what we could add for them. Perhaps a specific type of elephant unit? Maybe. Just a few suggestions to keep the other civs still unique.
Now, the Ghazi is just a slightly stronger swordsman replacement to me. Although, maybe a longswordsman replacement makes more sense, considering it was a title given to Muslim warriors. I don't know. Anyways, basically, they would spread religion to a city when attacking, and still require iron.
I think we could work with the elephants units you provided. The mammoth actually works, as I know the native American tribes used to hunt them. According to a few sources, at least. I think if humans did tame them, they wouldn't hunt them off so quickly. But then again, I suppose climate change would've killed them off, so they wouldn't survive, forcing humans to use the other elephants. Cool. Checks out history wise.
Naresuan's elephant works. I don't know if you want to put it as a bow unit, though. 'Cause, if we already have the camel bowmen, which is a fast, light unit, I think we should get a "heavy" unit, don't you think? The horseman unit is the mid ground between the two classes. We could have this upgrade to the War Elephant.
Ballista elephant is fine being ranged, actually. It's just a heavy ranged unit. Let's have the Ballista elephant upgrade to artillery, as it would keep the ranged promotions for later, and not just have them go to waste if it upgrades.
War Elephant is perfect just the way you suggested.
Now, this provides us with a little problem. Carthage, Siam, and India. For Carthage, we could leave them with the quinquereme and add a cothon (a harbor replacement.) For India, I guess we could add a Sepoy unit, which is basically a rifleman replacement, just stronger and more effective in open terrain (shock I). Siam, however . . . don't really know what we could add for them. Perhaps a specific type of elephant unit? Maybe. Just a few suggestions to keep the other civs still unique.
Now, the Ghazi is just a slightly stronger swordsman replacement to me. Although, maybe a longswordsman replacement makes more sense, considering it was a title given to Muslim warriors. I don't know. Anyways, basically, they would spread religion to a city when attacking, and still require iron.
sman1975
Emperor
Good catch on Naresuan - I wrote "bow" in error. Confused, too early. So #2 would indeed be the Naresuan but with a spear (melee), stronger, and probably a move of 3?
I saw all of these elephant units as upgradeable to the later version, but would not carry any unique promotions (the awarded free promotions, not the ones they earned through combat - they transfer). But the point about Ballista Ele --> Artillery makes better sense, although I'd recommend the Cannon, since a Classical Era unit running around in late Industrial Era seems a stretch. Gunpowder/early Renaissance seems a better fate.
I honestly hate replacing UU's. Have done that before and got lots of grief from people who played those civs because they liked those civs the way they were. What I can do is make these new units available to all other civs, and keep those 3 civs from building them.
Another thing I was thinking about - we can also expand the Camel class of units by creating a couple of composite "melee" units: a Raiding Party (camel bowmen, and desert themed swords & spearmen, melee attack, not ranged), and a War Party (camel riflemen, and some desert themed riflemen). They'd have biped (infantry) speed and different promotions, but would expand on the "Desert Warrior" theme mentioned earlier. Could be fun and wouldn't take much effort. I think....
Have some errands to run, but hope to get back to the mod in a few hours. Need to completely restructure the icon atlases, as I was scaling them down to make the mod as small as possible, but since it's growing in scope, probably need to make it more accommodating to growth. Will need to look for elephant artwork to use, or create some if I can't find any. Will post suggestions when I have a nice set.
I saw all of these elephant units as upgradeable to the later version, but would not carry any unique promotions (the awarded free promotions, not the ones they earned through combat - they transfer). But the point about Ballista Ele --> Artillery makes better sense, although I'd recommend the Cannon, since a Classical Era unit running around in late Industrial Era seems a stretch. Gunpowder/early Renaissance seems a better fate.
I honestly hate replacing UU's. Have done that before and got lots of grief from people who played those civs because they liked those civs the way they were. What I can do is make these new units available to all other civs, and keep those 3 civs from building them.
Another thing I was thinking about - we can also expand the Camel class of units by creating a couple of composite "melee" units: a Raiding Party (camel bowmen, and desert themed swords & spearmen, melee attack, not ranged), and a War Party (camel riflemen, and some desert themed riflemen). They'd have biped (infantry) speed and different promotions, but would expand on the "Desert Warrior" theme mentioned earlier. Could be fun and wouldn't take much effort. I think....
Have some errands to run, but hope to get back to the mod in a few hours. Need to completely restructure the icon atlases, as I was scaling them down to make the mod as small as possible, but since it's growing in scope, probably need to make it more accommodating to growth. Will need to look for elephant artwork to use, or create some if I can't find any. Will post suggestions when I have a nice set.
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