Expansion Civilizations

[Xineoph]

I never said China wasn't important. I said it is as important as China.

Sun-Tzu may be a work of military art, but the Maccabees and Bar Kochba never had that book, and as far as I recall, they Maccabees beat the Syrian Greeks, and nearly beat the Romans for independence.

So I'm pretty sure, The Hebrews have more then enough military achievement.
Our laws are also in place for thousands of years.

And if technology makes you feel any better, how about the fact the Radhanites (Jewish Guild), who controlled trade from 500 to 1000 AD. The Jews, are said to have used the banking system, long before the Templars, and went all the way to China and India for their trades, where they are said to have been the original bringers of the Indian Numbers and Paper money.

Don't get me started on science, or have you been blind this whole time? Most of the modern Science and Technology was invented or innovated by the Jews...well not most. But they did introduce quite a bit of it.

I want you to face the fact, that the Israelis are as important in history, and can face the fact, that the Israelis...ancient or modern, can face the Chinese...tech for tech, science for science, culture for culture...the Jews are as universal as they are.

I know I used the words Jews, Hebrews and Israelis interchangeably, but to me it is the same concept involved at the end.

 

[Pratputajao]

Really? Are they really that strong? I heard in 1979 some people said that only traffic jam in Bangkok could help them from being overrun by Vietnamese, no? And one of Cambodian provinces is Siam Riep, which means Siam the thief. What does this mean?

Huh, I dont know that I would take "some people"s account all that seriously " Some people" said Iraq was a threat to the US and well... But seriously I dont know exactly how you mean this but Vietnam is not in the same area as Thailand, At least economically. On every economic measure Thailand is far ahead of Vietnam and far far far ahead of the rest of SE asia exept for Malaysia. Militarily maybe Vietnam was superior, but the damn place had been fighting non stop for some 40+ years. But the fact is that Vietnam never did take over Thailand ( and they had fought more than a few times) I am not sure if you ment to infer that Thailand was not the major player in SE asia now or in the past? Either way that is incorect on both accounts. Siem Reap is a province that is so named for winning a battle over the Thais in the 17th century in THAT province but overall Cambodia hadnt been a threat to Siams supremacy over the region for hundreds of years and would never again. Many times in its ( cambodia/Khmer) history it was ruled over in one way or another from Ayuthaya or Bangkok but after the 13th century the Thai people were never again ruled over by the Khmer. After Ayuthaya (Siam) became a unified country in the 14th century the Khmer would never again have the power it once had. Many reasons for that but one was for sure the power that Siam held. Add to that that Thailand was NEVER colinized, unlike every other country around (even mighty Vietnam). This truelly does make Thailand a unique country in the region. Either way it doesnt matter as I would love to see every country of SE asia be in CIV!!! There is a long and interesting history there that is sadly overlooked.

 

[SenhorDaGuerra]

The would be a better place without religion.

we never had these arguments in Civs 1 through 3.

 

[Xineoph]

Are you talking about Israel? Even without religion, it deserves to be in the game.

Although i am not really happy with Mali, I would much rather prefer Ethiopia. As because, as far as i can remember, it was the only African country to not be colonized, and is a continuously existing civilization.

It's peak, might be that of the Axumites.

 

[asylumlost]

I believe that canada of all current nations deserves to be in civ. There is no if canada might as well add this country or that. Economically it is becoming more and more important, Its socially and politically active on the world stage, theres an abundance of resources ( a fair amount untapped), there has been an abundance of important inventions to come out of it, and we have leaders of all types to fill the ranks.

Canada is the only g8 country not represented except for italy which could arguably be said rome represents. I dont think anyone could argue that the would isnt better with insulin. For wonders other people have given valuable options I would add Hudsons Bay Company as an economic wonder. I can think of 6 posible leaders, MacDonald, Laurier, Bolden , Mackenzie King, Diefenbaker, and Trudeau. Great people consider either of the Curries for scientist, Conrad Black for merchant, Lorne Greene or Paul Anka for Artist, Terry Fox for Prophet.
There is an actual history to Canada too. Exploration and colonization, to native warring and peace. The red river revolt and louis reil. The first wholly diplomatic independance (or some semblance of it). Accomplishments at war in; the war of 1812, both world wars, desert storm and afghanistan (where Canada is still getting shot at by Americans). Many revolts from red river to Quebec to yammerings of seperation in the west. First in peacekeeping (tied with Jamaica I think) around the globe. I think Canada has done well for itself in the short time its been around especially considering its low population (comparatively) and population density

 

[Danghis Khan]

I don't think that Canada has acheived the long lasting global imprint that designers look for when picking civs for the game. Two of the things you mentioned (war of 1812, HBC) actually occurred under the British rule, and technically everything prior to 1981 did. As much as I'd love to see the Canadians as a Civ, I think there is a grandness missing from Canadian national identity and history that just isn't there. On the other hand, from reading this and other threads there seem to be more than enough Canadians who play the game and it might be fun to have in contrast to the English or Americans.

Oh, and BTW drop Borden from your list of PMs and put in Pearson instead. Pearson has had a far more important influence on Canadian identity than Borden.

 

[loui89]

there should be aswell as england, a Britain or United Kingdom, although england itself has had huge amount of influence on the world, Britain had even more. At one point in history the "British" empire held over a quatre of the worlds surface, and held more than 470–570 million people, which is one historys biggest empires to be seen. Also i might add that, the channel tunnel to be placed as a national or global wonder, i dont really need to explain its quite self-explanatory.

 

[aaronflavor]

MacDonald, Laurier, Bolden , Mackenzie King, Diefenbaker, and Trudeau. Great people consider either of the Curries for scientist, Conrad Black for merchant, Lorne Greene or Paul Anka for Artist, Terry Fox for Prophet.

I'm not specifically opposed to Canada as a Civ (I've visited it a few times, and it is indeed an enchanting [and quite old, as things go in America] place.) However, possibly due to my American ignorance, I've never heard of any of those people, save Maddamme Currie and her husband.

 

[asylumlost]

macdonald and laurier are two of the forefathers of confederation, and were two of the first prime ministers. Bolden was pm during the depression. king was a 3 (maybe 4) time pm and was crazy to boot. Deifenbaker was PM in the 50's(?), best conservative pm. Trudeau was a 3 time pm and had to deal with the quebec uprising and the flq. Conrad Black held the largest print media conglomeration in North America. Greene was a musician who went into acting and eventually producing. Anka is a musician from the 40's still releasing "innovative" music today. Terry Fox inspired Many people by running across canada to raise money and awareness for cancer even though he was on a prostetic leg in 1980.

 

[extraneus]

You guys have any ideas how many countries, civilizations have been around since homo sapiens and homo erectus started to wander around the world ? you all have your own identites, if some of you want Denmark in, some other want Hitties, Minoan, Ireland, Romania, Poland, Ibo, Swili, Tibet, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Khmer, Indonesia, etc,(which most people in this forum did), what is gonna happen ?
everybody has a whole bunch of reasons why their nations should be on the list, you guys have to understand that it's not all about "civilizations", it's also about "potential markets" (people from which countries are gonna buy this game) and some other issues that people don't speak about publicly such as "politics". Think about it:
If you look at the current exist civilizations, not all of them are "ancient". Japan was not even a kingdom until 5th century A.D.. Compared to the Choson kingdom of the Korean, and the Co Loa kingdom of the Viet( Vietnamese) which emerged around 4th-2th century B.C. or later the kingdom of Champa, the Japanese civilization was a new one. In a certain aspect, Japanese history before the Meiji revolution was pretty much about civil war and slow developed. There is no doubt that Japanese warriors are tough, but could they defeat the 2 Mongols invasions without the help of the 2 hurricanes ? That I doubt. Bytheway, the mongols lauched 3 failed invasions on Dai Viet (Vietnam) which are slightly bigger than the armies that they sent to Japan. The Vietnamese weren't lucky enough to have any tonardo or hurricane to help them, but they still beat up the Mongols. The Burmese defeated mongol invasion, the muslim Marmuk of Egypt also did that. Failed mongols invasions are not something unique to Japan.
How about United States ? Is there any nation called America 2000 year ago ?
This is not to say that Unites States and Japan shouldn't be on the list. In fact, the contributions of U.S. and Japan for our modern world is quite clear, and these nations also have their own wonderful cultures and histories which we all should respect.
When we talk about civilization, it's not only about warfare and power, it's also about contributions, life's style and many other cultural things. I think that the people who made Civilization IV had thought about this carefullly before they come up with those nations. And I also believe that if there will be new nations, Sid Meier' will give good judgments on what nations should be put on the list.

To Pratputajao:
Combodia is not only vessel of Thailand, it's also vessel of Vietnam, a treaty was signed at the end of 19th century making Cambodia vessel of both Siam and Vietnam. And Laos was also subjected to Siam and Vietnam. It's just like a hamburger. French colonization actually saved Cambodia and Laos from being completely annexed to Siam and Vietnam.
I agreed that the Siam kings were very wise in finding a way to avoid colonization which the Vietnam emperors couldn't do. But both Vietnamese and Siam were never super power, I say that they were pretty much equal in power. The fact is that they both never have much influences on Southeast Asia marine lands. The Siam always had to watched out for the Burmese, while the Viet had to watch out for their thousand-year enemy, the Chinese.

Anyway, I think that if any people in Southeast Asia will be on the list, they should be Khmer, Siamese or Viet

 

[Pratputajao]

Extraneus-- You are absolutely correct- Cambodia during the 18th centaury was under both Thai And Vietnamese control. However everything I have ever read indicates that The Siamese would have been the more powerful of the two. And If I am correct Thailand controlled Cambodia more times and for longer periods of Time than did the Vietnamese. Thailand first took control of Cambodia in 1603. It wasn’t until about a centaury later that Vietnam began to aid Cambodia directly with fighting men to any large measure. Afterwards The Vietnamese Were, many times, Allied with Cambodia against Siam, but never were able to fully contain Siam or stop them from taking a majority of Khmer territory.. Actually the reason the French (In 1858, under Emperor Napoleon III) took Vietnam was to stop Siam's expansionism in Indochina, because of persecution of French missionaries and(to the French) it was appearing as though France was falling behind in the "Colonizing game"( for lack of a better term). If it wasnt for France, yes Thailand and Vietnam would probably share a border without a Laos or Cambodia (as you said). I highly doubt Siam could have taken any Territory within Vietnam itself though.

So Siam was surrounded by enemies (Burma and a Viet. Friendly Cambodia and at times Laos) and still managed to keep their county fee and independent for almost 800 years (and actually expand)! NO other country in that part of the world (hell, most of the the WHOLE world as a matter of fact) has been able to do this! Even after having its capital captured twice by the Burmese (last time burning it to the ground) the Thai managed to quickly get their act together and drive the invaders out.

To my knowledge it was the Shans, who were living in Burma, who drove the Mongols out, not the Burmese? The Shans are a Thai people they are not Burmese. They speak a Tai language and are trying to separate from Burma and Thailand but are having a really hard time with the Burmese and their Thai relatives who treat them poorly. Actually I think it was Shans allied with three other Thai kingdoms (Maybe the Burmese as well I am not sure) that drove the Mongols back? Could be wrong though.

Anyway, I consider Thailand to be Ahead of (maybe if only slightly) every other SE Asia country for its history, Leaders, Modern day strength, its influence and its, generally, prosperous relations with the west. I would place Vietnam second, Burma third, Khmer forth. To many this sounds backwards but other than its early influences over the region, Khmer Empire was short-lived and not very powerful. Vietnam is older (though it wasn’t independent from China until the 9th or 10th centaury) Thailand was much more economically powerful and Burma was vastly superior militarily. Yes there is Angkor wat but had not the Burmese destroyed everything in Ayutthaya (1st capital of Thailand) it would have been very similar. Even after having been destroyed Sukhothai and Ayuthayya are called Thailand’s Angkor wat(s) I have seen all three, All very impressive! Though Angkor wat is much bigger. The Burmese people to this day recognize the crime of the total demolition of one of the great cultural and religious centers of Asia that was Ayutthaya. The Burmese King actually cried when he heard what his troops had done. Ayutthaya was a city that was called the "Venice of the east" and most Europeans who visited there compared it in size and beauty to Paris and London. I dont know of any other SE asian city that was as great... Even Angkor.

Thailand had many problems though, mainly when they had bad leaders they really suffered and the power of the kindom waned. Lukily Siam was truelly blessed by a great number of extraordinary leaders. It also had its share of Corrupt and incompetent kings.

Overall I would agree that Siam didnt totally eclipse Vietnam (Not so sure about Khmer) but I do think it has edged it out in history... I know for certain where I would rather be I never said they were a "superpower" but they were deffinatly a power that even the Europeans respected.

I totally agree with why one Civ gets in and another doesn’t- Marketing. That is why you will see --Insert any American Indian tribe-- over Vietnam or Thailand. That is why you have 7 European nations to just 2 far Eastern ones.

Anyway I know most people couldnt care less about Siam, Khmer, Vietnam and the rest, most would rather see the Celts in.. hehe

 

[crazyd2000]

Yeah, I want Israel to show up

 

[bubbleman]

Hi i am new and dont understand most of the things you just said (i read like 3 pages) . This is probly because i dont have the game yet but i am planning on getting it.
I am not history savy but i think it would be kool if the mixed it up with like modern day civs/countrys like the america with bush as its leader or the yooper/canaidian civ with some huntin guy as it leader.
thats all
P.S. if you dont like my post, or think its too chidish, dont reply

 

[bubbleman]

is ne one here?

 

[Older than Dirt]

With all the stupid jungle (swamp equivalent) the game seems to generate, there should be Cajuns. Think of the music to accompany the Cajun Civ let alone the units language! Special unit - airboat with cane knife with 500 percent combat bonus in jungle.

(Pssst, don tell nobody 'bout da UP - keep da secret.)

 

[loui89]

what i have noticed is that, great leaders arnt being generated is that because there not included or is it something else??

 

[Depravo]

Anyway I know most people couldnt care less about Siam, Khmer, Vietnam and the rest, most would rather see the Celts in.. hehe

Great post. I think the main reason people go for the Khmers is Angkor Wat. Really the Thai have a better claim to Civ-ness.

Congratulations, you've changed my mind (when was the last time you read THAT on the internet?).

 

[extraneus]

as I say, everybody has their own reason for while their nation should be on the list. I agree that Siam civ is a great one, but I don't think that Siam civ is greater than the one of the Viet or the one of the Khmer.

Let's talk about the Viet:
the history of the Viet civ dates back thousand of years before the Tai civ. Most people in Southeast Asia probably know about the Dong-Son civ which centred in the heartland of Vietnam, the Red river delta. It's true that the Dong-Son civ belongs to the whole Southeast Asia, not only the Viet, but the fact is that it was centralized, and organized as a nation in Vietnam. Today, archeologists have been finding hundreds of Dong-Son bronze drums and many other bronze drums and weapons influenced by Dong-Son style through out Southeast Asia, but mostly in north Vietnam. This indicates that the Viet had an organized governemt very early, because to produce a Dong-Son bronze drum, it requires atleast 5 tons of bronze ore at that time, high level of blacksmith skills, and very skillful artisans. Producing Dong-Son drums in large number and trading them through out Southeast Asia and South China couldn't be done by a number of villages or clans. Chinese historian also said that the Yue(Viet) were run by an elite aristocrat class.
Archeological evidences so far also shows that the Viet governments were indeed well organized. So, should it have a place among the new civ ? The fact is that together with the Choson, civ of the Korean, the Co Loa of the Viet are the two oldest civ in Asia after India and China.

In the Medieval time of Southeast Asia, the Viet had their first Confucian university (temple of literature), which is still in Hanoi, before the Thai kingdom were established, they were ruled by the Chinese for more than one thousands year but still be able to keep their identites (which most people in South China couldn't do, this suggest a long cultural, civ background of the local Viet people). The Viet continued to fight Chinese invasions after gained their independence, they defeated three mongol invasions and contiuned to fight the Chinese centuries later. During the 15th century, Viet literature flourished, educations are encouraged, Hanoi, the Viet capital were the first city in Southeast Asia to reach the population of one million. The Viet also undertook many military campaigns against the Champa and eventually annexed the Champa kingdom.
In the 18th century, even during the civil war between Viet noble lords, trading with the European, the Chinese and other people could be found in all large habors such as Hoi An.
In the pre-mordern time, the Viet were ruled an weaken royal famiies which lead to French colonization of Vietnam.
I don't think i have to talk about mordern Viet history since most people know it ( I don't think that the Communist are the right word for the Vietminh, I regard the Vietminh as nationalists rather than commnunist)

In general, should an old nation such as Vietnam has a place in the new civ list ?

 

[Koelle]

Extraneus

So Siam was surrounded by enemies (Burma and a Viet. Friendly Cambodia and at times Laos) and still managed to keep their county fee and independent for almost 800 years (and actually expand)! NO other country in that part of the world (hell, most of the the WHOLE world as a matter of fact) has been able to do this! Even after having its capital captured twice by the Burmese (last time burning it to the ground) the Thai managed to quickly get their act together and drive the invaders out.

what, surrounded by enemies? How could you call your neighbors enemies? We dont even share border with you. What kind of enemies do you have? Laos, Cambodia, Burma, lol ... See what Viet had to deal with: Chinese for thousands years, Mongols, French, American, all were super powers at times. Actually, we considered you guys more barbarians than rivals. The first ever clash between us took place in late 1700 when Emperor Quang Trung defeated 500.000 Siam's troops at rivers Rach Gam and Xoai Mut (ok, Wikipedia said it was 500.000 but i dont believe that much as well as i dont believe in the myth it said about the Khmer's empire and the so-called "Venice of the east". Saigon was also "pearl of the east", but who cares) and a few year later 300.000 Chinese's troops, but then he chose to go for the conquest of China, and not the conquest of Siam. Why? Not because Siam was tougher than Qing, just because he didn't want to do it. Look at Switzerland, never been conquered by anyone, but it was more pathetic than
powerful. What would Siam look like, had they not hid behind their boss's back, the American

Anyway, I consider Thailand to be Ahead of (maybe if only slightly) every other SE Asia country for its history,

Leaders,

are your leaders well-known than Ho Chi Minh, Vo Nguyen Giap, Tran Hung Dao, ...

Modern day strength,

what it your strength anyway?

its influence and its, generally, prosperous relations with the west.

Sure. As i said before, they couldnt stand without the west

I would place Vietnam second, Burma third, Khmer forth.

I would place you guys all second. Btw, Burma is absolutely irrelevant for Vietnam

Overall I would agree that Siam didnt totally eclipse Vietnam (Not so sure about Khmer) but I do think it has edged it out in history... I know for certain where I would rather be I never said they were a "superpower" but they were deffinatly a power that even the Europeans respected.

It doesnt matter to me where you would rather be. But Viet have bought all best Thai's footballer (incl. Thai's Zico) and i'm sure they would rather play football in Vietnam than in Thailand . And most important, we do respect ourself and dont need respect from "the Europeans" like you guys

 

[Depravo]

It doesnt matter to me where you would rather be. But Viet have bought all best Thai's footballer (incl. Thai's Zico) and i'm sure they would rather play football in Vietnam than in Thailand . And most important, we do respect ourself and dont need respect from "the Europeans" like you guys

Uh... your location says "Cologne"...