[BTS] Experienced players that find emperor level easy

The gap between emperor and immortal is huge though.
Don't agree with this either. There is a difference, certainly, AIs will settle the land quicker on Immortal and grab wonders quicker too, but I'd say the difference between Emperor and Immortal is fairly marginal. Immortal to Deity, however, is HUGE.

Looking over some comments from the saves you posted*, I suspect it's more a case of hitting a roadblock on Immortal because you can't get away with bad habits any more. Remove some of those, and you'll probably be winning comfortably on Immortal pretty soon too. The early turns are crucial in this game, so once you get decisions mostly right there, you'll slowly get into a strong position and be able to choose your win from there, also on Immortal.

* (edit: actually, the person quoted isn't the OP, but I reckon the comment is still relevant)
 
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lol here it comes (i played the save to 725 bc )
Spoiler :




It's OK, i've got more axes than he does. shouldn't be a problem....

I don't want to give too much advice since I'm worse than the other people in this thread (I've beaten deity once and win ~50% of immortal games.). But even though this is a very hard map and and i got declared on early, this emperor game is not going to give me any trouble. Once I get catapults i'll be in a good position to roll over hannibal .

Emperor games are really pretty simple if for expert players.

 
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Personally, I'd consider a BW>Fish opening.

If I understand your advice, my reasoning has been nonoptimal. I had thought: fish first, because the capital can grow while the work boat is under construction.

I do that often. Why is the reasoning wrong, please?

I might consider an immediate switch to BW here for 4>2 settler whip.

Whip settlers? But is whipping not a mechanism that channels food toward production? Construction of settlers already channels food toward production, without whipping. Why should I take the penalty of the whip?

But you should have been chopping instead of roading and farming incense.

(As mentioned earlier, this particular game was experimental. I did not know that I would be asked to post it! The experimental reason I did not chop would take too long to explain.)

But warriors should be out spawnbusting this early. A single unit can bust a 5X5 tile area from the tile it stands on.

You have just taught me a thing I did not know!

Do you not use slavery much?

I seldom adopt the slavery civic until I have something big to build, like a library. Is this wrong?

A somewhat earlyish scout wb might be of benefit heading around to the SE.

What is a scout wb, please?
 
This question is not addressed to anyone in particular, but one or two of you have suggested that I should have built more cities. How can more than three or four cities be built so early? Are more cities not too expensive to maintain?
 
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WB = work boat.

And yes, generally, you’ll want to be in slavery to leverage it early. Most of the time. I’ll switch as the first settler is moving to settle. 4 -> worker whips are common, as are 2 -> 1 whips for stuff like a work boat, etc.
 
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Whip settlers? But is whipping not a mechanism that channels food toward production? Construction of settlers already channels food toward production, without whipping. Why should I take the penalty of the whip?
Actually, post-granary you should nearly always whip settlers/workers. This is because slavery transforms :food:->:hammers: at a much much better rate than slowbuilding settlers/workers does (1:food:->1:hammers:). At size 1, :food:-bar is 22 :food:. Granary effectively cuts it in half, thus transforming 11:food:->30:hammers:... Suddenly the :)-penalty feels pretty insignificant. :)
 
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Actually, post-granary you should nearly always whip settlers/workers. This is because slavery transforms :food:->:hammers: at a much much better rate than slowbuilding settlers/workers does (1:food:->1:hammers:). At size 1, :food:-bar is 22 :food:. Granary effectively cuts it in half, thus transforming 11:food:->30:hammers:... Suddenly the :)-penalty feels pretty insignificant. :)
Aha. That makes much sense.

How did you put symbols like :hammers: in your post, incidentally? (Other than by copy/paste, as I just did?)
 
Whip settlers? But is whipping not a mechanism that channels food toward production? Construction of settlers already channels food toward production, without whipping. Why should I take the penalty of the whip?
Your understanding is correct. For the sake of a demonstration, let's take a size 2 city that does +7F and +2H per turn.
Growing to size 3 takes 24 food ; growing to size 4 takes 26 food. Whipping 4 -> 2 converts 50 food into 60 hammers.
However,
Gathering those 50 food (growth from size 2 to 4) takes 7 turns with this 7F surplus (let's be generous and round 49 to 50).
Therefore,
Post-whip,
50 food have been converted into 60 hammers and 14 hammers have been gathered towards a different item
But
1 turn has been spent into Anarchy and
Those 14 hammers have been distracted from the important item to the not-important item.
Over 8 turns focusing towards the important item, no whip scenario gives :
(7+2)x9 = 72H

^ This might be slightly less overall production but the production that matters is superior. ~~ I'm not advocating building settlers at size 2 (sometimes it's correct - spending 4 turns to work an extra grassland forest is useless) : it's all about tiles ; work the strong tiles ; research what allows to work the strong tiles ; build settlers when they get you additional strong tiles (otherwise go granaries to double up your stake) ~~
Since there seldom are important items to grow upon in the very early game, whipping the first settler is almost always a bad idea.
Growing on a workboat could be a situation that changes things : those are relevant hammers to accumulate while growing.

4 out of 5 maps, the first whips should likely be a worker or a granary.

On your map, there's no question you want to start on a workboat after the worker is out, so Fishing first is a given.

Your mention 3-4 cities : this is about the objective for a certain tech level, i.e. Pottery/Writing.
Past that tech level, either you go for a rush strategy (and don't expand), either the tech you just acquired gives you the means to expand further.
(In reverse : one can't afford to expand past 5 cities without Pottery and Writing.)
 
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Aha. That makes much sense.

How did you put symbols like :hammers: in your post, incidentally? (Other than by copy/paste, as I just did?)
:food : and :hammers : (without the spaces in the end).
 
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This question is not addressed to anyone in particular, but one or two of you have suggested that I should have built more cities. How can more than three or four cities be built so early? Are more cities not too expensive to maintain?

I'd love an answer to this one too as it pertains to this particular map... I actually built less cities than OP did when I played the map. I just wanted to build a bunch of military units and steal hannibal's land, since my land was such crap and I don't want to build around the mountains. On emperor this is easy and IMO the safest play since i'm most worried about an early war declare. On deity it for sure wouldn't work, so i'd have to come up with a better plan--but what?

P.S.: Everyone on this forum explores 5 times as much as I do. You know you can just wait for paper, right? :lol: or maybe I am lazy...
 
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If I understand your advice, my reasoning has been nonoptimal. I had thought: fish first, because the capital can grow while the work boat is under construction.

I do that often. Why is the reasoning wrong, please?

Did you go worker first?

There's really much variation on how one can optimally approach a coastal start. Depends on resources, starting techs, and improvable tiles. In a more competitive settings, players will often use a test game to try various approaches for optimization.

BiC mentioned Fishing was a given here. Maybe so. He has played out the start. Mao has nice starting techs that give you some options here. Build worker first, farm FP and mine pigs while building wb to net fish. Then chop wb for clams, or go straight to settler at size 3 with the fish/farm/pig iron....and chop.

Without having played, I don't see much difference though of BW>Fish to Fish>BW other than the fact that you will not start a wb immediately after the worker. Farm>mine>chop wb. I'd be interested in seeing the difference in the timing of the first wb. Ultimately though, sans AH, the fish is the most important tile in Beijing's BFC, so improving that is a priority.

In other cases, say one starts with Fishing tech and you have a forest PH (3H tile) you might build a wb first using the PH. Or if no forest PH and a 3F tile like the FP, you grow to size 2 and size 2 max hammers to finish wb. Teching to BW in the meantime.

If I'm coastal and have decent improvable food on land, I may ignore the seafood for some time.

edit: and as for growing, well you can always grow on a warrior until fishing arrives.

Whip settlers? But is whipping not a mechanism that channels food toward production? Construction of settlers already channels food toward production, without whipping. Why should I take the penalty of the whip?

Some good explanations from BiC and Sampsa. Yes, food surplus is used for production of settlers and workers. Whipping settlers and workers is a way of converting that food into production. Whip a settler with with overflow (OF) into an EXP worker...cha- ching.

With that said, Beijing will have 3 or 4 strong early tiles, so argument could be made to slow build first settler + chop(s), then whip stuff later at size five or 6(3pop)...especially after fast EXP granary. General rule of thumb is not to whip off strong special tiles.

Whip penalty does not concern me..that can be managed.


(As mentioned earlier, this particular game was experimental. I did not know that I would be asked to post it! The experimental reason I did not chop would take too long to explain.)

fair enough. we're just giving advice based on what we see there.

You have just taught me a thing I did not know!

:)

I seldom adopt the slavery civic until I have something big to build, like a library. Is this wrong?

Ideal time to switch to slavery is when the first settler has popped and is moving toward new city site. New city will not incur the anarchy turn. With that said, depending on the food in my cap and timing of BW, I may switch immediately so that I can whip the first settler. But yes you should be in slavery as soon as you can, and use it. Exception might be in poor food situations where whipping is just not optimal....rare but possible.


What is a scout wb, please?
wb is workboat...nice on maps like Fractal for exploring coast and opening fog. Opens foreign trade routes after sailing. Not mandatory mind you, but can be good idea.
 
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This question is not addressed to anyone in particular, but one or two of you have suggested that I should have built more cities. How can more than three or four cities be built so early? Are more cities not too expensive to maintain?

BiC made a good point on Pottery and/or Writing being a benchmark for when to expand beyond 4 cities. Deity this is even more important cause maintenance is brutal. Regardless, if you have good sites to settle within reasonable distance of your cap, i.e., food, then they should be a priority. If land is otherwise at a premium, then you are thinking about some early warfare, as sampsa pointed out.

If I have access to more commerce early, I might expand faster than Writing..it all depends.

At Writing anyway, you are likely going to go full 100% tax for sometime as well, accumulating gold as you get libraries in. This further funds expansion as you iron out your tech approach based on the situation....war? or more peace tech trading options?

I can't recall what you were doing exactly as I looked at your 700BC save, but Writing at 700BC is very late.

Aha. That makes much sense.

How did you put symbols like :hammers: in your post, incidentally? (Other than by copy/paste, as I just did?)

Besides tags, you can simply use the emoticon button - the smilie button above the new post field. In the tab "civ-related" you will find a bunch of civ icons like :commerce::culture::espionage::food::gold::gp::hammers::health::move::religion::science:

P.S.: Everyone on this forum explores 5 times as much as I do. You know you can just wait for paper, right? :lol: or maybe I am lazy...
Honestly, early on, scouting is not a huge priority for me. I am more concerned with spawnbusting. What BiC did I would not have done, but he may have his reasons. On fractal, I'd rather knock out an early scout wb to explore. The idea is meeting more AIs sooner and opening coastal trade routes. Knowing more AIs means more possible tech bonuses and trading later....and in the case of discovering the Dutchies possibly overseas trade routes which are lucrative. Paper is far too late for that. If my land is not coastal, I will likely build a 2:move: guy to do some further scouting once barbs are no more a concern, unless I already had a scout around spawnbusting.

Heck..just check out any Lain Let's Play video if you want to see someone who scouts very minimally early on. He's very much about spawnbusting early on Deity which is essential to survival really.
 
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P.S.: Everyone on this forum explores 5 times as much as I do.
I certainly don't. It's actually hard to explore less. Workboats on fractal are a different story though.
 
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BiC mentioned Fishing was a given here. Maybe so. He has played out the start. Mao has nice starting techs that give you some options here. Build worker first, farm FP and mine pigs whill building wb to net fish. Then chop wb for clams, or go straight to settler at size 3 with the fish/farm/pig iron....and chop.
You don't even need to farm on this start : you mine the pigs and chop. Hence why Fishing -> Bronze.

On scouting, to each his own philosophy (big word :p). There's risk and reward. I scout (and die to barbs) ; others don't (and win in 1900 AD).

Below : do you explore ? :p Yeah, right, maybe I'm exagerating, too. Whatever, logic stands.
 
You don't even need to farm on this start : you mine the pigs and chop. Hence why Fishing -> Bronze.

If BW times to the pig iron, then that is indeed best. I was just spitballing things here :D

that approach should get out 2 fast wbs

On scouting, to each his own philosophy (big word :p). There's risk and reward. I scout (and die to barbs) ; others don't (and win in 1900 AD).
BiC bringin' the pain :lol:
 
Yes, actually, whipping into a boat or using city hammers aren't a concern, here :) Simple things that playtesting show easy.

Sorry for talking smack. Shortcuts.
 
Below : do you explore ? :p Yeah, right, maybe I'm exagerating, too. Whatever, logic stands.
I already said I don't. I don't understand what that has to do with winning, or winning in 1900AD. I don't understand what logic stands. I don't think this was very serious anyway. :lol:
 
The gap between emperor and immortal is huge though.

If you can win 10% of your immortal games, you can win 95%+ of your emperor games.

The gap between immortal and deity is equally large.
People typically say that gap between deity and immortal is more like one between immortal and noble.

On immortal the real jump is the AI getting free worker, so they typically jump to three cities really early and then AI silliness takes over (changing builds, building monasteries, etc). The tech and production bonuses are not big enough to compensate for that. In my experience, if player has proper economical set up immortal AI's can't keep up in the late game (okay, Mansa, Willem and Zara being in one religion probably could).

Depends on how these 10% games are won. If these are AP cheese then I would definitely say no. If these are spacecraft launches, well, maybe.
 
People typically say that gap between deity and immortal is more like one between immortal and noble.

I mean, let's think rationally here. Let's say you have a player who is good enough to win only 75% of noble games. What chance do they stand on immortal?
None whatsoever: do you agree?

But an skilled immortal player can win Deity with enough luck (which is basically where I'm at in my progression right now).
and if you can only win 75% of emperor games, it's going to take you a lot of tries to win on immortal. probably more than 20. It's not like you'd never win, but it's a heck of a jump. As someone who has progressed from Emperor --> Immortal --> Deity, the difficulty gap seems about the same in my opinion.

Depends on how these 10% games are won. If these are AP cheese then I would definitely say no. If these are spacecraft launches, well, maybe.

I agree, AP cheese doesn't count. And you have to win without reloading from old saves, or it doesn't count :)
 
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