Explain Why Aztec isn't the Worst Civ.

[fmlizard2]

Its been my long belief that Aztec is by far the worst Civ in the game. Here is why:

Their Jaguar UU comes too early to do any real conquest. Jungle tiles are rare, cities are just too strong relative to them early, and there is almost no way you are going to be able to overpower a high-level AI with numbers before Jaguars are obsolete.

Their UA sucks. Just not nearly as much impact as other early civs. Downright useless later.

Their UB is really situational and hard to use. How often do you even get a lake next to a city?

The lack of synergy between killing lots of stuff to get and a warlike strategy. Conquest and culture are generally exclusive of one another.

Plus, when the AI plays Aztec it is far and away the most consistently backward Civ.

The only way I could see Aztec being somewhat solid is in a small cultural vertical game when you happen to get a bunch of lakes.

So, I know Aztec is actually considered by some to be a good civ, even upper tier at higher levels. Why?

 

[chazzycat]

At higher levels you get a lot more units to kill, so the culture becomes more significant.

The UB is a great building. It boosts overall food, you don't need a lake for it to be useful.

Jaguars are underwhelming, but they keep their ability upon upgrade. This is not to be overlooked.

Conquest and culture are cetainly not mutually exclusive. Getting more culture will help you down the autocracy tree faster, for example. And puppet empire culture victory is one of the easier ways to achieve that victory condition.

 

[Rittmeyer]

- Jaguars, when upgraded, retain their healing ability. That will make a difference when they are LSM or rifles.

- The UB is not restricted to the lake bonus. There`s a nice 15% growth bonus adding to an already nice building.

- Culture and Wars are far from mutually exclusive. Actually, multiple puppets can only help a cultural win attempt.

- Culture also helps a domination victory attempt. Filling honor extremely fast can be excellent.

- They are not the worst Civ because there will always be Germany, America, Ottomans, England, and so on.

 

[Martin Alvito]

You have to make as many Jaguars as you can during the period before they obsolete (and take good care of them) to get mileage out of the UU. You're correct that Jaguars themselves aren't very good, but Swordsmen upgraded from Jaguars are very strong and the healing ability only becomes more powerful as the unit becomes stronger. It's usually possible to pick off the AI's legacy units without taking damage, which is very helpful.

The UB isn't phenomenal, but it's good. The 15% bonus to growth will usually result in an extra or two during growth phases, which saves some turns.

The important thing about the UA is that it doesn't just work on barbs, unlike Honor. At lower difficulties the UA isn't very good, but at Deity it often ends up being as good as or better than a static per turn boost. Your point that the boost doesn't come as quickly is significant, especially to the utility of the Liberty tree. If anything, the biggest problem with the UA is that it makes it very hard to get SP timings to coincide with the jump to the Renaissance.

 

[Steelyglint]

Its been my long belief that Aztec is by far the worst Civ in the game. Here is why:

Their Jaguar UU comes too early to do any real conquest. Jungle tiles are rare, cities are just too strong relative to them early, and there is almost no way you are going to be able to overpower a high-level AI with numbers before Jaguars are obsolete. Spam then upgrade. Jags can take someone's capital early on if you try hard. Jungle tiles aren't rare. Their free Woodsman promotion basically makes them really strong scouts except if you going through bare hills and crossing rivers.

Their UA sucks. Just not nearly as much impact as other early civs. Downright useless later. Much much more culture against barbs than anyone else. It's not really really mega superb but it's good, especially when Raging Barbs are active. If you go down tradition first you can be getting more than a turn's worth of culture for each barb killed in the early game. Bit rubbish against any other sort of enemy tho, Steely agrees

Their UB is really situational and hard to use. How often do you even get a lake next to a city? Not often. Except when you've got a start bias for them -.- 15% is nice too

The lack of synergy between killing lots of stuff to get and a warlike strategy. Conquest and culture are generally exclusive of one another. Puppet empires

Plus, when the AI plays Aztec it is far and away the most consistently backward Civ. It's a bad AI, that has no reflection on the Civ

The only way I could see Aztec being somewhat solid is in a small cultural vertical game when you happen to get a bunch of lakes.

So, I know Aztec is actually considered by some to be a good civ, even upper tier at higher levels. Why?

Aztecs are one of my favourite civs to play, if not THE favourite (I'm a king player).

What sort of games are you playing FMLizard?

 

[fmlizard2]

Aztecs are one of my favourite civs to play, if not THE favourite (I'm a king player).

What sort of games are you playing FMLizard?

I'm typically doing Emperor, with some Immortal thrown in. Pangaea, default settings. I've always been a big believer in "build early, dominate late". I can't even remember the last time I did an offensive war before turn 100. Probably one of the reasons I think Aztec sucks the big one

 

[Exterminas]

The worst Civ for what?

They are a decent militaristic Civ. Not top-notch, but not unplayable either.
I personally like to get stuff for killing things. The Aztecs take care of that urge nicely.

Explain to me why a mediocore militaristic civs should be worse than lets say... the Ottomans! Who even suck on some Archipelago-Maps (Namely the one with too little land, resulting in large gaps between "continents" and very few barb camps)

 

[Tabarnak]

If you pick Aztecs you eliminate chances to play against them

Swordmen upgrade around turn 40-50 with some archers is nice. Even at immortal the AI have often only warriors and spears.

 

[Steelyglint]

I can't even remember the last time I did an offensive war before turn 100.

That's why you hate them. Problem solved!

 

[joncnunn]

Don't the Aztecs have a start bias towards both Jungle & fresh lakes?

And while it may very well be the civ that's least compatible with my preferred playing style, it's very good for war monglers.

 

[Polycrates]

Aztecs are pretty damn solid.

The UB is just about the best UB in the game - the 15% growth (especially combined with Tradition bonuses) is spectacular. The lake thing is just a nice little bonus that might let you settle an extra site that others might pass by (and you can get watermill bonuses lakeside rather than just riverside); a bit of extra flexibility.

The UU is solid. A lot of its value comes from when it's upgraded, sure.
But that extra bit of healing can make a big difference when barb hunting in the early game, or fighting off an early warrior rush by another civ, or even making a bit of an offensive yourself. It's easy to underestimate the very early UUs, but they're great for giving you the security to really put your front foot forward in the early game (where it really counts the most) rather than playing it timid and safe.

The UA is pretty good too, I reckon. The obvious comparison is to France's UA, which is much stronger but less fun. By the midgame it's minor at best, but what makes it great is your ability to accelerate through those vital early policies that much quicker and get your empire pumping from the get-go. You can really rip through honour/tradition at a great pace, and both trees suit you to a T. Honestly, you'll probably get most of your value out of the UA from fighting barbs, so you don't even really need to get into a whole bunch of early fights if the situation favours building. And you don't even have to really go on the offensive anyway - steal a worker or two then go on the defensive for the culture and XP while you build up, then charge in later with your uber swordsmen or whatever.

I see Aztec as very much a hybrid civ rather than a pure warmonger, and I reckon they're pretty good at it.

 

[Br0pX]

This is my first post and English is not my native language. Excuse me if their are typos

- the key point in the beginning is to help out the city states for invading barbs but do *not* destroy the barb camp until a city state attacks a camp (more barbs = more culture + influence on city state) or an AI is planning to attack/capture it. The extra healing from the aztec unit comes in really handy here.

- lets give an overview of what we may accomplish if we play the above scenario:
+ you collect a fair amount of culture.
++ provides the option to skip building the monument in the begining but the culture keeps on flowing in
+ you get easily friends or allied with a few city states *without* spending any gold(except aztec unit upkeep cost)
+ the aztec unit can easily get 2 promotions by attacking barbs without baraks/armory in the game and are ready for upgrades and you are ready to rumble!./roar
+ the aztec unit hammer cost is low so you can queue an UU more easily in your build order
+ you can free a captured worker from a barb camp easily and keep it if desired

In a nutshell, the aztecs can provide an awesome start if played well and is able to provide a lot of oppertunities.
Later in the game, you can start to build up the UB which is not bad at all as mentioned in previous posts.
Also, the UB provides the ability to settle to a place which is not very appealing for other civs(eg. very poor food). But wait....there is a lake which makes it very appealing for you.

I suggest to play this civ with the following map conditions as a try out and to learn its strength.
- map : lakes
- rainfall : wet
- bodies of water : small/large
- raging barbs on

Enjoy!

 

[snarzberry]

Aztec's UU/UB/UA = decent/decent/decent
German UU/UU/UA = crappy/crappy/crappy

Question to Aztec players that have noticed: Is it still the case that killing enemy units with A-bombs or Nuclear Missiles doesn't give any culture pay-off like regular killing?

 

[Tabarnak]

German UU/UU/UA = crappy/crappy/crappy

I disagree. In a mp game, German Landsneckts/Panzers/33% discount units maintenance= very nice/situational/awesome

I rushed a player with 15+ units in the BC and maintenance was easy to cover. Cheap landsneckts are a real headache for rushed players.

In a sp game i kind of agree but for emperor or below an horde of landsneckts combined with the discount is pretty good. Build order : unit/unit/unit/unit....

 

[Roxlimn]

I play at King, so the experience might not translate, but I found Aztecs to be quite incredible. When playing Aztecs, I prioritize building Jags over Scouts and even Archers. This is so I can get a core 8 or so units that I can keep for upgrading purposes. That way, I can lose 2 or 3 and still have an elite Jag infantry core.

When I play Aztecs, I choose Honor over Tradition or Liberty as the first tech. This will give you a necessary edge against the Barbs you will farm and alert you to the location of any nearby culture spring barbarian camp.

Between the UA and the first Honor point, you will net 12 culture for every barbarian unit you kill. Note - this culture is produced every time you kill a barb unit, you don't have to take the camp, and it can be a bad idea to kill the camp as that will dry up the sources of barbarian units. After the first point in Honor, just go whichever - go for Liberty, even.

This is not all that different from taking first point in Tradition, except that it will earn you a massive culture start pool on the lower settings as you harvest the barb units for culture. Conservatively, each camp on the map should net the Aztecs 24 culture assuming the camp is cleared first chance (and it will, of course, spawn one unit before you really get going).

If you can clear, say, 5 camps before the land is settled, then you can earn something like 120 culture quick within the first 60 or 70 turns. Granted, the Honor bonus is in there, too, and grants 60 of the 120.

Higher settings won't spawn that many camps, but the Immortal AIs should send more troops your way, so it evens out.

The UB's good - +15% on any freshwater-sited city is a fantastic boost to growth.

Jags are great, as barb hunters and later on as frontline shock troops. Their Woodman promotion comes in handy for navigating Forested tiles in both friendly and enemy terrain, and their self-heal ability is at least on par with the Immortal double-heal ability.

 

[snarzberry]

I disagree. In a mp game, German Landsneckts/Panzers/33% discount units maintenance= very nice/situational/awesome

I rushed a player with 15+ units in the BC and maintenance was easy to cover. Cheap landsneckts are a real headache for rushed players.

In a sp game i kind of agree but for emperor or below an horde of landsneckts combined with the discount is pretty good. Build order : unit/unit/unit/unit....

heh, maybe I was too harsh. I'll upgrade Germany to decent/crappy/crappy

 

[Tabarnak]

heh, maybe I was too harsh. I'll upgrade Germany to decent/crappy/crappy

Why do you think the UA is crappy? Because you build only a little but very effective army? Very good players can beat the game in sp with only few units, but in mp games fast clicking beats promotions any day.

Yes, i think that's the big difference. In mp the discount is a lot useful but in sp you can gain so much money by selling things that the discount doesn't save you much money, and you need a big army to feel something. If i'm off the track please tell me

 

[snarzberry]

You're probably right that this is why you rate the UA more than I do as it's likely way stronger in MP where you don't sell stuff for income. I only play single player so cash is more plentiful. It's still a decent ability I suppose, to be honest I haven't played Germany since the discount was added to their UA. In the early game I suspect it's not worth as much gold as other UA's like arabias or russias and in the late game if you're going to be getting the most out of it then you'll have a large/huge army. But a large/huge army generally comes with a large/huge empire so your gold and gpt are likely through the roof anyway.

 

[Roxlimn]

I also play SP, snarzberry, but I avoid luuxury selling unless the Civ calls for it (like Arabia) and only when I clearly have multiples. No selling my last copy of a lux or strategic.

It's absolutely not optimized to play this way, but out-and-out resource selling just seems to me to function to undermine (actually to MINE the AI) the point of raising the difficulty settings. What's the point of giving the AI all these bonuses if you're just going to siphon them off at the first opportunity?

 

[Seikninkuru]

Aztecs aren't the best but they aren't the worst! They're pretty good!