Exploration and explorers

[The_J]

I find the Idea of food supply for military units in general (one slice of bread per turn and unit, no matter what type) very very tempting.

Did you play Civ2 or 3?
In Civ2 under the most governments units after a certain limit needed shield (=hammers) supply, in 2+3 settlers needed also food supply from their home cities.
I really didn't like this system and was really happy that they did get rid of it in 4.

 

[mjs0]

I dont think we play the same game

I think (as with many things) the answer is somewhere in the middle, especially once you play with BTS.
Prior to BTS I would explore anywhere and everywhere as fast as I reasonably could, unfortunately espionage changed my outlook. Once espionage is added to the mix the civilization with the most foreign contacts is at a disadvantage because the limited number of EPs had to be spread across more civs. I would either find myself falling somewhat behind against all Civs or very behind against a few, depending on the way I allocated my EPs.
So...in BTS I found I explored less, especially overseas, until I absolutely had to, often edging my caravels around some unrecognized cultural boundary color because I just didn't want that diplomatic contact just yet.

Agreeable, but it doesnt bother me much

I actually would like to see fishing boats unable to move onto or unveil black (unexplored) tiles. This would leave me able to build a fishing boat in one city and send it to another city as long as there was an uncovered path but they would still be incapable of actual exploration.

 

[Set]

It has been pointed out many times that you do not really need to explore because you can just trade maps. so why not just eliminate map trading (I dont like this) or limit it like maybe when you get a map from someone you cannot see the resources or/and terrain types and only a general shape of the land is shown to you. You could also have the land change overtime so resource and terrain types could move around and your settler you dispatched a few turns ago to settle somewhere would find it changed around so it would no longer be a good city spot only land explored by explorers could you see the changes happening without having someone there, land in cultural borders would not change. you could also have false map trading so someone on another continent could give you a false map that made their land look much worse than it is to stop them settling or worse to have them waste hammers on settlers to settle bad spots. this however this might make some really stupid Ais who think a map is always fake or always real it could also create a lot of micro management with you having to choose which tiles to change on your world map and all and if the computer controlled this it might do the wrong thing eg show good land when you want it to show bad and vice versa. there are a lot problems with the other ideas to. feel free to point them out.

 

[Ahriman]

Or rather than eliminating map-trading, move it to a much later-game tech, like ~astronomy.

 

[Set]

Or rather than eliminating map-trading, move it to a much later-game tech, like ~astronomy.

This would work well too because but not perfectly. still it is the simplest solution

I had another cool idea as well. you could make the farther a goody hut is from your captial the more it is worth eg hut that gives 30 gold right near your capital will maka 60 gold on another continent. this would make exploring new continents and such much more valuble also you could keep goddy huts spawning through the game until all civs had invented astronomy so by combining your idea and mine you could make a much more valuble longer exploration era

 

[Ahriman]

Alternatively, index hut yields to game turn, so huts not discovered until turn 200 have much higher yields than huts snagged on turn 30.

 

[Dale]

Alternatively, index hut yields to game turn, so huts not discovered until turn 200 have much higher yields than huts snagged on turn 30.

People would goodie farm then. Hold off popping the ones you can protect until late game and get a huge bonus.

That actually happens now with techs in goodies. Find a late game goodie and you'll get an awesome tech.

Goodies shouldn't give techs, but an amount of research instead towards whatever tech it wants. Just because you find titanium sheeting doesn't instantly mean you know how to make it, you have to figure that bit out.

 

[Ahriman]

People would goodie farm then.

I thought of that, but the only way you can do that is by refusing to sign open borders with anyone. Otherwise your trade partner will just come in and take your huts.

The economic costs of having no trade partners would/should be more than the economic gains from farming the huts.

Goodies shouldn't give techs

Agreed. A free tech is radically stronger than any of the other rewards.

 

[Dale]

I thought of that, but the only way you can do that is by refusing to sign open borders with anyone. Otherwise your trade partner will just come in and take your huts.

This is true. The lack of trading partners would hurt (specially at higher levels where you need one or two). But thinking in terms of Civ5 with 1upt it would be easier to goodie farm, just surround it with your reserves. Other units wouldn't be able to get through then. Unless it's an opposing non-military unit.

Which makes me wonder, will scouts be non-military and able to pass through choke-points? Would be easy to block AI's exploring by choking access with warriors if scouts are also a military unit.

 

[Ahriman]

But thinking in terms of Civ5 with 1upt it would be easier to goodie farm, just surround it with your reserves. Other units wouldn't be able to get through then.

Basic units have a movement of 2, and you can move through non-hostile units. So a 6-unit surround wouldn't block any access, and 10 a unit surround wouldn't block access to any units that moved faster than infantry.

I think that exploit isn't worth worrying about.

Would be easy to block AI's exploring by choking access with warriors if scouts are also a military unit.

Worse than blocking scouts is signing "open" borders but blocking entire armies.

There are lots of potential exploits here.
There's no clean fix I can think of; the only way to stop you from being able to block is to allow units from different factions to stack, but you can't let this happen during wartime without breaking the combat system.

Other hex games I've played haven't really been "team" games, or been games where you've had to worry about prolonged periods of peace.

 

[Dale]

Worse than blocking scouts is signing "open" borders but blocking entire armies.

There are lots of potential exploits here.
There's no clean fix I can think of; the only way to stop you from being able to block is to allow units from different factions to stack, but you can't let this happen during wartime without breaking the combat system.

Other hex games I've played haven't really been "team" games, or been games where you've had to worry about prolonged periods of peace.

Like you say, with the size of an Empire and the number of border hexes, and the need to be two deep, that's a LOT of units to block AI units.

 

[Thormodr]

I really like the idea of limited exploration in the early game. However, if they aren't going to change it, I'd like to see something like this:


I'd like a system where your civilization forgets certain areas if you haven't visited them for awhile.

For example, early in the game when there weren't accurate maps you might send off a warrior or a fishing boat that travels for a long distance and eventually meets with an untimely demise. You then don't send any units to that area for a thousand + years.

I think, that area should start becoming unknown to you again. The areas not visited would fade to black eventually.

Of course, once quite accurate maps are made, your civilization would be able to retain that knowledge. Perhaps with the invention of map making or paper.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Ooo. . . I like that.

 

[Chalks]

I really like the idea of limited exploration in the early game. However, if they aren't going to change it, I'd like to see something like this:


I'd like a system where your civilization forgets certain areas if you haven't visited them for awhile.

For example, early in the game when there weren't accurate maps you might send off a warrior or a fishing boat that travels for a long distance and eventually meets with an untimely demise. You then don't send any units to that area for a thousand + years.

I think, that area should start becoming unknown to you again. The areas not visited would fade to black eventually.

Of course, once quite accurate maps are made, your civilization would be able to retain that knowledge. Perhaps with the invention of map making or paper.

This would work particularly well since most people will actually forget the exact terrain they have explored, leaving just a vague memory about what it was like - like having rumours of the huge sea to the west but no actual maps.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I really like the idea of limited exploration in the early game. However, if they aren't going to change it, I'd like to see something like this:


I'd like a system where your civilization forgets certain areas if you haven't visited them for awhile.

For example, early in the game when there weren't accurate maps you might send off a warrior or a fishing boat that travels for a long distance and eventually meets with an untimely demise. You then don't send any units to that area for a thousand + years.

I think, that area should start becoming unknown to you again. The areas not visited would fade to black eventually.

Of course, once quite accurate maps are made, your civilization would be able to retain that knowledge. Perhaps with the invention of map making or paper.

This is a TERRIBLE IDEA

You should NEVER EVER have a game mechanic that can be circumvented by note taking.

If a player can circumvent this by just saving the game each turn and looking at the saved games (not even playing from them, but taking screen shots) then it is stupid and makes for boring pointless MM.



The limitation idea is probably the best for simple implementation, It would probably have to work like cultural borders

You have a number of "Borders" (switching which ones were visible)

1. "culture borders"
2. "Standard Unit Supply Range"
3. "Extended Unit Supply Range"

The distance to borders level 2+3 would be based on your tech/wonders/Civics/buildings, and possibly based on Forts as well as Culture/Cities.

The more borders the unit is inside, (ie closer to your cities/culture) the less maintenance the unit might cost and the faster it might heal

Some units couldn't leave your cultual borders*special limitation

Most units couldn't leave the 'Standard supply'

Some units Could leave the 'Standard Supply'*special ability

Only late game explorers could leave the "Extended Range" borders to travel over the whole world**very special ability

The borders wouldn't be a fixed Distance, but a fixed amount of "Movement" so they would go faster over certain types of terrain (faster over water, slower over mountains) You could extend it by building roads.

 

[Abood]

"This is a TERRIBLE IDEA

You should NEVER EVER have a game mechanic that can be circumvented by note taking.

If a player can circumvent this by just saving the game each turn and looking at the saved games (not even playing from them, but taking screen shots) then it is stupid and makes for boring pointless MM."

What you just explained is basically cheating, no one is really gonna take the time to take screenshots of their saves just to know what the map looks like a few hundred miles to the east. And if they do, thats just ********... Id feel bad about playing the rest of the game from that point if I did that.

And if they did, it could be explained historically. Maybe a descendant of the exploring party kept the locations of landmarks alive through oral tradition through his lineage for countless generations while the rest of the civilization forgot about it. Eventually maybe his bloodline found its way into the monarchy (or tribal despot) and there you have it, the entire civilization now has that knowledge again. This last paragraph is as unlikely as anyone actually taking the time to cheat as you expected them to.

 

[Abood]

That said though, I like your idea as well. However shouldnt maintenance costs go up the farther away you are from your own cities/culture? It seems like a batttalion of roman warriors in britain would cost much more to keep loyal, fed and on task than would the same battalion in sicily.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

"This is a TERRIBLE IDEA

You should NEVER EVER have a game mechanic that can be circumvented by note taking.

If a player can circumvent this by just saving the game each turn and looking at the saved games (not even playing from them, but taking screen shots) then it is stupid and makes for boring pointless MM."

What you just explained is basically cheating, no one is really gonna take the time to take screenshots of their saves just to know what the map looks like a few hundred miles to the east. And if they do, thats just ********... Id feel bad about playing the rest of the game from that point if I did that.

And if they did, it could be explained historically. Maybe a descendant of the exploring party kept the locations of landmarks alive through oral tradition through his lineage for countless generations while the rest of the civilization forgot about it. Eventually maybe his bloodline found its way into the monarchy (or tribal despot) and there you have it, the entire civilization now has that knowledge again. This last paragraph is as unlikely as anyone actually taking the time to cheat as you expected them to.

They will, if the game takes away knowlege, because me "Remembering" something is not cheating.

Taking Screenshots is just an easier way of remembering.
This isn't a Test.

Actually the better suggestion is that Explores don't reveal any territory until they get back... yes, you must know where your explorer is in order to bring him back.

This should be true of ALL military units (on land) until the development of telegraph, and of all sea units until the invention of radio

Actually, you should not know what your cities are producing unless you send a messenger to them... you can then send them a queue for them to follow.

Or perhaps you should be required to Aim the arrows of you r archers for them actually to hit the enemy... make it Wii adapted so you can block arrows with your shield, swing your sword, etc.

Perhaps you should be expected to balance a chemical equation before you can develop

or you must describe the requirement for plant growth to achieve agriculture,

An essay on government should be sufficient for Constitution

And you should have to submit a completed income tax form before you can change to a bureaucratic government

You say that is stupid.. that is just as stupid as forcing the player to remember what his people should remember.



Thanks for the support of the other idea though. I'd probably make some 'Hard limits' though
Ie some units can pass out of the supply limit borders and pay higher costs, other units just could not pass (basically they could not be supported if they went that far) [oops noticed typ in the idea... farter away means More costs not less]

 

[Chalks]

Who cares if it can be circumvented by taking a screenshot - it's a minor realism improvement that will have very little actual affect on the way you play the game. If you want to bypass it then good for you!

You're not going to win the game just because you remembered there were 6 mountain tiles on the other side of the world in stead of 5.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Who cares if it can be circumvented by taking a screenshot - it's a minor realism improvement that will have very little actual affect on the way you play the game. If you want to bypass it then good for you!

You're not going to win the game just because you remembered there were 6 mountain tiles on the other side of the world in stead of 5.

Its NOT a 'minor realism' improvement.

What if you couldn't see what techs were in the tech tree unless you knew their prerequisites

What if you couldn't see what buildings/units a tech gve you until you unlocked it

Those Techs/buildings shouldn't be accessible in the civilopedia either

Neither should leaders/civs that you haven't met yet

And you shouldn't know about what bonuses they get until they get them
Same thing with your Civ... if you are german, then the game doesn't tell you that you will get panzer tanks untill you research tanks.


That would be a 'Major realism' improvement, it might stop people from beelining to techs because they don't know what the techs give, or it might stop them from building a strategy based on racing to space... which is majorly unrealistic, how many ancient civs prioritized science because they wanted to go to another planet.


You know Why you don't do that.... because after you have played the game a few times you have already Seen that information, and it HASN'T CHANGED. So all you have to do is remember it.
I do NOT want to play Memeory, I want to play civilization
(Just like I don't want to play "Deer Hunter" if I want my people to get food from game in the forest)