Exploration and explorers

[Shurdus]

Its NOT a 'minor realism' improvement.

What if you couldn't see what techs were in the tech tree unless you knew their prerequisites

What if you couldn't see what buildings/units a tech gve you until you unlocked it

Those Techs/buildings shouldn't be accessible in the civilopedia either

Neither should leaders/civs that you haven't met yet

And you shouldn't know about what bonuses they get until they get them
Same thing with your Civ... if you are german, then the game doesn't tell you that you will get panzer tanks untill you research tanks.


That would be a 'Major realism' improvement, it might stop people from beelining to techs because they don't know what the techs give, or it might stop them from building a strategy based on racing to space... which is majorly unrealistic, how many ancient civs prioritized science because they wanted to go to another planet.


You know Why you don't do that.... because after you have played the game a few times you have already Seen that information, and it HASN'T CHANGED. So all you have to do is remember it.
I do NOT want to play Memeory, I want to play civilization
(Just like I don't want to play "Deer Hunter" if I want my people to get food from game in the forest)

Agreed. Make it available, or we are motivated rto make a pdf and print that out and keep that at hand anyway.

 

[Chalks]

Its NOT a 'minor realism' improvement.

What if you couldn't see what techs were in the tech tree unless you knew their prerequisites

What if you couldn't see what buildings/units a tech gve you until you unlocked it

Those Techs/buildings shouldn't be accessible in the civilopedia either

Neither should leaders/civs that you haven't met yet

And you shouldn't know about what bonuses they get until they get them
Same thing with your Civ... if you are german, then the game doesn't tell you that you will get panzer tanks untill you research tanks.


That would be a 'Major realism' improvement, it might stop people from beelining to techs because they don't know what the techs give, or it might stop them from building a strategy based on racing to space... which is majorly unrealistic, how many ancient civs prioritized science because they wanted to go to another planet.


You know Why you don't do that.... because after you have played the game a few times you have already Seen that information, and it HASN'T CHANGED. So all you have to do is remember it.
I do NOT want to play Memeory, I want to play civilization
(Just like I don't want to play "Deer Hunter" if I want my people to get food from game in the forest)

What?

Forgetting map knowledge is not a minor change because if you did a whole bunch of other unrelated crap, it would be a big change that wouldn't work?

 

[Semmel]

Ohh people... its a game and it is supposed to be fun! If it would be as real as life, you wouldnt need a game. btw, geocashing is really cool, has a great, superrealistic graphic and sound system, as well as other things like super realistic rain and if you prefere even pain like when you fall off a rock or run into a tree. Which are also super realistic btw.

 

[Ahriman]

I think "forgetting" map info is not very much fun for the player. I agree with the idea that games that encourage you to take notes just have bad UI.

The game interface is supposed to make the game easier to play, not harder.

 

[Thormodr]

My idea can be circumvented of course.

I have some friends that are meticulous Civ players. They never play a game without a spreadsheet. They are always making calculations and their games literally take months to play. Some people like to play that way and that's cool. So, some people would want to take screen shots.

At least for me, it would be fun and more realistic. Even if I can still remember the area I explored roughly in my mind.

Anyway, obviously it should be a game option. That way if you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

 

[frekk]

I think "forgetting" map info is not very much fun for the player.

Agree. Also, if you're taking screenshots you can still 'remember' the map; it's just an annoying step you have to go through to see it.

I agree with the idea that games that encourage you to take notes just have bad UI.

Hmmm. I'm sort of divided on this one. I loved taking notes and making plans in the original version of colonization. And in some other games I've loved planning layout of buildings or whatnot on graph paper. Sometimes I like to take notes in civ, too.

 

[LDiCesare]

Forgetting part of the map is something I'd loathe. Hate. Detest. Not buy the game if I had to play with that.
In addition to what's already been said: It can be circumvented by the player, but is it circumvented by the ai? How does the ai deal with it?

 

[Geek113377]

maybe if fishing boats could only go on tiles that had already been discovered...? i have always been a fan of exploration, and you're right, i have usually discovered most of the world before explorers. unless there are other continents, and i have to wait for galleons. but by the time you get to astronomy, your rival's units can easily pwn explorers, so you've got to probe the dark with stronger units, just in case the new land's population is hostile.

 

[Thormodr]

Forgetting part of the map is something I'd loathe. Hate. Detest. Not buy the game if I had to play with that.
In addition to what's already been said: It can be circumvented by the player, but is it circumvented by the ai? How does the ai deal with it?

The AI would build more explorers.

 

[Thormodr]

I never said my idea was ideal but it is a heck of a lot better than crappy little fishing boats discovering new lands and accurately mapping it. Totally unrealistic.

I think, as suggested, that fishing boats should not be able to discover new territory.

Neither should certain other units like warriors and phalanxes. That is in no way realistic.

If they don't change it, I won't be too upset. It would be nice to see a mod that implemented it though.

 

[Ahriman]

I think the idea of only some unit types being able to explore new territory is an interesting one. You'd probably need to have each faction start with a scout though.

Its the very early game I'd worry about most.

 

[Chalks]

I'm torn on fishing boats being used as explorers since there is lots of evidence that many places were first colonised by fishing boats that were blown off course.

Obviously, the issue there is that they didn't colonise it in the name of their native country but formed a whole new culture in the new land making it quite a bit different than something a nation would intentionally do for exploration.

 

[Thormodr]

I'm torn on fishing boats being used as explorers since there is lots of evidence that many places were first colonised by fishing boats that were blown off course.

Obviously, the issue there is that they didn't colonise it in the name of their native country but formed a whole new culture in the new land making it quite a bit different than something a nation would intentionally do for exploration.

That's a good point and I thought of that of fishing boats blowing off course too. I think however, that most fishing boats weren't sturdy enough to do so until the middle ages though. So ancient era fishing boats wouldn't be able to do what they do in the game.

I always found it ridiculous in the ancient era to have fishing boats sail over to your borders then have that Civ ask for open borders so they could continue exploring.

 

[Che Guava]

I think, as suggested, that fishing boats should not be able to discover new territory.

Neither should certain other units like warriors and phalanxes. That is in no way realistic.

Didn't Alexander the Great pretty much march from Macedonia to India without much more than Phalanxes?

But I do agree that there should be some limitations on early exploration, and early troop travel as well. It never seemed to sit well with me that some civ on the opposite side of a continent as large as asia could wander over by 1000 BC, then show up with a fully stocked army 200 years later.

My suggestion would be larger unit maintenance costs the further you get away from your own borders, and possibly the elimination of scouts until at least a little later down the 'tech trail'...

 

[Dale]

Didn't Alexander the Great pretty much march from Macedonia to India without much more than Phalanxes?

But I do agree that there should be some limitations on early exploration, and early troop travel as well. It never seemed to sit well with me that some civ on the opposite side of a continent as large as asia could wander over by 1000 BC, then show up with a fully stocked army 200 years later.

My suggestion would be larger unit maintenance costs the further you get away from your own borders, and possibly the elimination of scouts until at least a little later down the 'tech trail'...

To compare in-game, Alexander going from Greece to India, is like classical era conquest of your neighbor and meeting a new Civ on the other side. What I think they're referring to with warriors and phalanxes would be compared in real life to the Celts discovering China.

 

[Craxymaxy]

This is a TERRIBLE IDEA

You should NEVER EVER have a game mechanic that can be circumvented by note taking.

If a player can circumvent this by just saving the game each turn and looking at the saved games (not even playing from them, but taking screen shots) then it is stupid and makes for boring pointless MM.

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the world editor?

I don't see how this would hurt to have as an option, i certainly think its better than a hard limit on distance.

 

[Osama Bin Davis]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the world editor?

I don't see how this would hurt to have as an option, i certainly think its better than a hard limit on distance.

Alot of people arent a fan of a hard limit, I am just wondering why not? Is it the fact you want to beable to just explore the complete globe in the ancient era? or is there something elsE?

 

[LDiCesare]

The AI would build more explorers.

No. It would do what the player can do, namely keep a copy of all that it once knew, thereby negating your feature. If the ai coder didn't program it to do this on higher difficulty levels, he'd be coding a stupid ai.
As already said, it's a bad idea to design a mechanism that can be circumvented outside the game.
Instead of erosion of knowledge, one could have the knowledge gleaned in the first place be inaccurate, like when you get a map from someone else, you get some "noise", and some tiles show a wrong information (not good terrain type for instance).

 

[Tantor]

My suggestion was to make it more expensive to use normal military units for exploring as their upkeep would increase the further they get away from your border, but also to let scouts, explorers and caravels avoid increased upkeep as they would start with an "explorer" promotion.
I think workboats in particular should be unable to explore, but only be able to move into already explored areas. I would never send my worker out as a scout because of animals and barbarians, and it should be equally dangerous or impossible to use a workboat as a scout.

 

[Ahriman]

Is it the fact you want to beable to just explore the complete globe in the ancient era? or is there something elsE?

Its the break in immersion due to an arbitrary mechanic. My scout can go for many turns exploring, living off the land... but somehow he can't go one more tile in a particular direction?
And that fixed distance includes nearby tiles that are actually really hard to get to (like the other side of an impassible mountain range) but not slightly more distant tiles that would be easy to get to (like by following a river or coast).

The invisible line in the sand "thou shalt go no further" just doens't really make any sense.