Exploration and explorers

[Ahriman]

everyone of those places is coastal and can easily circumnavigate the deserts

Mongolia is coastal? Who knew?

And how are Arabs going to circumnavigate the Arabian desert? There's no Suez canal. So the only way from Mecca and Medina to Palestine is to go up through the Persian Gulf and through Babylon.... or to go all the way around Africa to get to the Mediterannean.

Mountains take up a fairly small part of the world. Deserts take up rather more. So its not just the same as having impassible mountains.
Its also easy to have mapscripts create mountain passes that are hill tiles. It makes rather less sense to have desert passes.

I agree that deserts should be more impassible, but I'd settle for increasing their movement cost to 2.

making road building outside of culture would make it more practical that is true

Remember that they're significantly changing how roads will work, and we don't have a good feel for it yet.
Having a requirement for a road doesn't fix the access problems, because roads can be pillaged, and because with 1upt sending the entire army up along a single narrow road really isn't going to work very well. Too easy to defend against it - or worse, pillage *2* road tiles and strand the AI's army.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

The problem we're describing, though, is not as small as you think Ahriman-it indeed comprises of several problems: (a) the rapid discovery of *all* your surrounding territory (usually in the BC era); (b) the lack of importance of ships prior to astronomy; (c) the lack of importance of explorers when they become available & (d) the ease with which an enemy army can strike *deep* into your territory, no matter what the intervening terrain. The changes suggested here are perfectly in line with solving these quite significant problems that exist in CivIV. Barring unfettered access to jungle, tundra & desert (via increased MP costs or an outright ban) seems perfectly reasonable, as long as certain units (like scouts & explorers) can get around OK & as long as promotions exist to allow you to create military units specialized for movement in these environments. Such things will make you think more carefully before you take action-so that rather than just taking a Combat 1 promotion for your ax-man, you might instead be forced to take Desert Specialist if you have a desert on your borders. Similarly, when deciding on the direction to push your cultural borders, you might be forced to push those borders out into an otherwise worthless desert, in order to speed movement of *all* your units through the area (&, perhaps, denying enemies passage through that same terrain). Also, if you have rivers or coastline near that desert, then you might be forced to make use of these instead of just being able to plunge straight out into the desert. My point, then, is that as long as their are options to get around it, movement bans can actually lead to increased strategic thinking & increased realism!

 

[Craxymaxy]

Mongolia is coastal? Who knew?

And how are Arabs going to circumnavigate the Arabian desert? There's no Suez canal. So the only way from Mecca and Medina to Palestine is to go up through the Persian Gulf and through Babylon.... or to go all the way around Africa to get to the Mediterannean.

In Civ terms, on the world map, Mongolia is coastal and Arabia almost always goes south rather than east.

Mountains take up a fairly small part of the world. Deserts take up rather more. So its not just the same as having impassible mountains.
Its also easy to have mapscripts create mountain passes that are hill tiles. It makes rather less sense to have desert passes.

Mountains are pretty numerous in the world, and planes tiles would work just fine for desert passes

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet but one Idea I've always though would be appropriate would be to 'bust' shroud one tile at a time. In all prior civ games a unit would reveal all adjacent tiles if they were 'shrouded' or just 'fogged'. Instead that initial onetime removal of the shroud could be considered much harder and a unit has to chip away at it one tile at a time.

This could even be done with an 'Explore' action that's performed on adjacent shrouded tiles without moving the scout and expending one movement point. The interface should be such that a move order onto shroud is auto-magically converted to explore so it's not a hassle to use. This further slows exploration and avoids any un-intentional attacks on the scouts parts. Conventional military might be either incapable of Exploring or much less efficient at it (expends all movement points).

Now consider that we already know that 2 is to be base movement for military units so Scouting units will be at least that fast if not faster. If the traditional system were used that would mean 6 tiles revealed each turn by a unit with 2 move and 9 by a unit with 3. Under single tile busting rules and an Explore action that's reduced to a much more reasonable level.

I've long advocated for range limited but very High speed navel units and that's a whole other topic but for the purposes of exploration I'd allow water to continue to be explored in the traditional manor (shroud busted adjacent to unit). But adjacent land would require an exploration action which all navel units should be capable of. This combined with the speed should make coastal exploration very effective and desirable.

It also leads to a very natural and simple way to make explorers (or some other late game unit) useful, allow them to follow the old rules, instant high exploration power without adding crazy high speed or vision radius

 

[Tantor]

Aussie Lurker: I totally agrre with your view.

How about a Great Explorer unit to replace the Great Spy? There have been numerous great explorers throughout history who has forever changed the fate of civiliazations.

I`ve bee thinking about possible abilities:
1. Scout with extreme sightrange, triple yield of gold from ruins
2. Naval units with a great explorer may move in oceanhexes
3 Merged with a city they give new units achoice between desert/jungle/forest/hills specialist promotion and increased LOS
4. Merged with a city "National Geographic Society", increased trade

Not all of these of course and I clearly see that som suggestions are better than others....
5. May steal or trade world maps (only possibility to trade world maps)

 

[Thormodr]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet but one Idea I've always though would be appropriate would be to 'bust' shroud one tile at a time. In all prior civ games a unit would reveal all adjacent tiles if they were 'shrouded' or just 'fogged'. Instead that initial onetime removal of the shroud could be considered much harder and a unit has to chip away at it one tile at a time.

This could even be done with an 'Explore' action that's performed on adjacent shrouded tiles without moving the scout and expending one movement point. The interface should be such that a move order onto shroud is auto-magically converted to explore so it's not a hassle to use. This further slows exploration and avoids any un-intentional attacks on the scouts parts. Conventional military might be either incapable of Exploring or much less efficient at it (expends all movement points).

Now consider that we already know that 2 is to be base movement for military units so Scouting units will be at least that fast if not faster. If the traditional system were used that would mean 6 tiles revealed each turn by a unit with 2 move and 9 by a unit with 3. Under single tile busting rules and an Explore action that's reduced to a much more reasonable level.

I've long advocated for range limited but very High speed navel units and that's a whole other topic but for the purposes of exploration I'd allow water to continue to be explored in the traditional manor (shroud busted adjacent to unit). But adjacent land would require an exploration action which all navel units should be capable of. This combined with the speed should make coastal exploration very effective and desirable.

It also leads to a very natural and simple way to make explorers (or some other late game unit) useful, allow them to follow the old rules, instant high exploration power without adding crazy high speed or vision radius

That's a very good idea.

 

[Thyrwyn]

That's a very good idea.

Me likee, too.

 

[Ahriman]

In Civ terms, on the world map, Mongolia is coastal

Mongolia Is Not Coastal. Its central Asian - pretty much the absolute definition of landlocked.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/asia-political-map.htm

The coast is on the other side of the desert.

Remember that for Egypt and Mongolia and similar, being "near" the coast doesn't help you, if the coast is on the other side of desert tiles.

Arabia almost always goes south rather than east

South, across the red sea, is the Egyptian desert.
Also, hopelessly unhistoric.

'bust' shroud one tile at a time

Certainly interesting.
I think this was removed largely to remove MM requirements, and because it would look reeeally weird with a square tile system. Certainly more viable with hexes.

 

[Craxymaxy]

I'm talking in Civ terms your talking historic, Mongolia doesn't have a desert between it and the coast on the world map and yes Arabia goes south through the red sea and colonizes central Africa in every world map game I've ever played

 

[Craxymaxy]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet but one Idea I've always though would be appropriate would be to 'bust' shroud one tile at a time. In all prior civ games a unit would reveal all adjacent tiles if they were 'shrouded' or just 'fogged'. Instead that initial onetime removal of the shroud could be considered much harder and a unit has to chip away at it one tile at a time.

This could even be done with an 'Explore' action that's performed on adjacent shrouded tiles without moving the scout and expending one movement point. The interface should be such that a move order onto shroud is auto-magically converted to explore so it's not a hassle to use. This further slows exploration and avoids any un-intentional attacks on the scouts parts. Conventional military might be either incapable of Exploring or much less efficient at it (expends all movement points).

Now consider that we already know that 2 is to be base movement for military units so Scouting units will be at least that fast if not faster. If the traditional system were used that would mean 6 tiles revealed each turn by a unit with 2 move and 9 by a unit with 3. Under single tile busting rules and an Explore action that's reduced to a much more reasonable level.

I've long advocated for range limited but very High speed navel units and that's a whole other topic but for the purposes of exploration I'd allow water to continue to be explored in the traditional manor (shroud busted adjacent to unit). But adjacent land would require an exploration action which all navel units should be capable of. This combined with the speed should make coastal exploration very effective and desirable.

It also leads to a very natural and simple way to make explorers (or some other late game unit) useful, allow them to follow the old rules, instant high exploration power without adding crazy high speed or vision radius

I like this idea, but i fear it might slow down the exploration too much and would further put a reliance on map trading

 

[Set]

I like this idea, but i fear it might slow down the exploration too much and would further put a reliance on map trading

just limit map trading as well.

 

[The_J]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet but one Idea I've always though would be appropriate would be to 'bust' shroud one tile at a time. In all prior civ games a unit would reveal all adjacent tiles if they were 'shrouded' or just 'fogged'. Instead that initial onetime removal of the shroud could be considered much harder and a unit has to chip away at it one tile at a time.

mmhh...that would make exploration very tedious, imho.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

mmhh...that would make exploration very tedious, imho.

Their is certainly going to be an automated exploration option what ever system is used so I don't see how anything is really going to make it tedious for the player. Having more units might be more tedious but I think Scouts should have a decent cost at least equal to basic warriors so it's not effective to spam them. If the player is controlling a comparable number of units in the early game it's not any more tedious then Civ4, you simply get less area explored, later we give Explorers and you can explore continental size areas with ease.

 

[LDiCesare]

I think there are 2 factors that make exploration an early-game only thing:
1) Lack of impediments in the early game (you can go wherever you want, no units nor borders stop you).
2) Map trading.
The first point could be avoided if starting units were limited, like suffering attrition in deserts, being blocked from entering jungle, needing time to uncover terrain, dying in droves to animals and other threats...
Later on, diplomacy is what prevents map exploration: You may not want to cross your neighbour's borders and declare war, and he may not want to allow you in (Tokugawa).
Much later, map trading makes exploration obsolete.

I'd much rather have limited exploration early on, no map trading until very late (satellites uncover the earth map), and trade routes automatically explore trading partners' territories.

 

[Tantor]

Wether or not this thread contains good examples may be discussed but, it has indeed created some stir on this forum. I hope the game developers have noted this and perhaps they take a few grains of our collective wisdom into their development of CIV 5.

 

[henryMCVII]

I think as well, exploring should be more usefull in late game. But I dont think this should be done by restrictions. One of several problems with restrictions is: restrictions on exploring will/may lead to limited options in (early) city placement.

Maybe your explorers become prospectors as well? For example a bit like in Imperialism: Mining ressources (from copper to oil) are not shown on map automaticly by technology - you have to prospect for mining ressources a few rounds. For a game like Civ this would be to much micro? Hm, okay, then maybe give explorers an promotion, which is just allowing them to discover mining ressources. Or they just are able to see ore and stuff, with connected technology discovered. So they need to explore (= prospect) explored land "again". At least they need to prospect hills for ore. Its just an rough idea, but something like this would make exploreres essential in late game.

Connected to this, I agree with those, who wants map trading less usefull. It should be done in a way, so that map trading does not fully "replace" exploring any longer. Once you traded maps, there should still be someting to explore on that land. I dont know what exactly this should be, but i hope you got my point. The prospector thing may allow to get the idea a bit more concrete, but it could be different of cource too.

 

[Ahriman]

A potential compromise:
1. Military units are unable to enter non-roaded desert (unless they have flood plains), jungle, tundra and swamp terrain outside your cultural borders until an early game (~tier3-5 or so) tech is researched. So, no mass exploration until players have numerous cities and there are significant numbers of barbarians around, but no impact on later game military operations.
2. Early game map trading (after paper) reveals only tiles within your cultural borders, not your exploration. Full-exploration map trading is available only with a ~18th/19th century tech.
3. Work boats have sight range zero; they do not reveal terrain in adjacent tiles, so you cannot explore with them.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A potential compromise:
1. Military units are unable to enter non-roaded desert (unless they have flood plains), jungle, tundra and swamp terrain outside your cultural borders until an early game (~tier3-5 or so) tech is researched. So, no mass exploration until players have numerous cities and there are significant numbers of barbarians around, but no impact on later game military operations.
2. Early game map trading (after paper) reveals only tiles within your cultural borders, not your exploration. Full-exploration map trading is available only with a ~18th/19th century tech.
3. Work boats have sight range zero; they do not reveal terrain in adjacent tiles, so you cannot explore with them.

Sounds good, but I'd add
4. Units take Slow ~5hp/turn damage when not in the BFH of a non-enemy city, or adjacent to a Friendly Fort. (Certain Types of units may take reduced damage.. ie Naval, exploration, etc.)

 

[Ahriman]

Sounds good, but I'd add
4. Units take Slow ~5hp/turn damage when not in the BFH of a non-enemy city, or adjacent to a Friendly Fort. (Certain Types of units may take reduced damage.. ie Naval, exploration, etc.)

This kind of mechanic normally destroys the AI.
The AI can't plan as well as the human player, and the AI tends to be more likely to commit its troops to distant/foreign wars.
The risk/rewards calculation for this kind of thing (is it worth me moving my units over here even if it means I take damage?) is very hard for an AI to do a good job on.

Its not worth adding attrition mechanics, that seriously change the military game, for the purpose of changing exploration.

Its also not worth adding attrition mechanics or supply systems at all; they're really not fun for casual players. This isn't a wargame aimed at grognards, its designed to be accessible.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'm not all that big of a fan of using massive barbarian/wild animal hordes to control scouting. It adds randomness to the system which is always TEH EVIAL

Think about it, you lose your scout to random barb attack and after a bit of cursing your building a new one (more clicks) and sending it out to the yet unexplored area (more clicks) in which it will invariably need to pass over already explored areas (inefficiency). All the barbs really amount too is a random decrease in the efficiency of exploration.

What if scouting units just had a natural 'lifespan' say 20-30 turns after which they just 'die' (just think of it as them coming home to report). Now you both need to make more explorers periodically but its predictable and fair for everyone. It also addresses much of the 'further should be harder to explore' principle without adding logistics.