Extending the generic property system

[AIAndy]

There can then be other ways for units to interact with the system (I'm pro-city only here). Units can have a declared culture and it can be quite rational for that to be unalterable after the unit was created. In fact, I was planning on using a combat class via subcombats to represent this. When trained or born they pick up the culture that has the strongest influence in the city they originate in.

Then some units, like Storytellers and Great Artists, may be able to, via their usual culture spreading missions, also add a static amount of the cultural influence that is equivalent to their 'declared culture'. Thus if you wanted to promote a given culture in your nation beyond what little buildings and trade and diffusion would be able to achieve, then you could build and send these units to promote particular cultures (as well as original Civilization Culture levels as normal.)

This diffusion is much of why I wanted to look at properties in the first place. You mentioned something about the system being fixed thus more akin to Flammability and that's my only concern because from what I understand there is no ability to diffuse with this system. So in general, I have these questions for you on this:

• Would something more dynamic here be problematic?
  
  
• Is the problem with a more dynamic method on this be the 'onchange' method being employed that gets checked rather frequently?
  
  
• Could a round by round check improve processing time a bit? (checking between rounds once rather than anytime there's an immediate cause for a property change)
  
  
• I don't think it'd be necessary to maintain the 'auto-building' response capabilities on these either. Would it help to eliminate that element? I think it'd be more appropriate to base prerequisites for building and training on the culture values instead - and a declaration of the particular culture existing in the city - I suppose it could be useful to have that as a building though... something to represent a 'local trait' as it were - but it would be based on being the strongest culture present rather than the actual strength of that culture's influence itself.
  

Sorry... started rambling a bit there. I'll leave it at that for now.

That is a misunderstanding. The cultures themselves would be a dynamic property.
But the model I suggested would not keep them independent but instead the distribution between the cultures in a single city would be influenced by two static properties that cause the cultures to grow higher or not and more towards few or many cultures.
There is no intention to have reduced possibilities for 1D properties compared to normal ones.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That is a misunderstanding. The cultures themselves would be a dynamic property.
But the model I suggested would not keep them independent but instead the distribution between the cultures in a single city would be influenced by two static properties that cause the cultures to grow higher or not and more towards few or many cultures.
There is no intention to have reduced possibilities for 1D properties compared to normal ones.

OK, cool! So how exactly would those work mathematically, keeping in mind most of the time I see you and Koshling exchange mathematical formulas I get completely lost

 

[AIAndy]

OK, cool! So how exactly would those work mathematically, keeping in mind most of the time I see you and Koshling exchange mathematical formulas I get completely lost

I have not decided on the exact formula yet, only on what it will do (self quote from some posts up):

Each of the cultures/religions will spread/diffuse like single properties, but instead of a simple decay, they interact. Two more static properties (like flammability, but I will improve the support so you can add/remove to it from civics and the like) will provide culture/religion capacity and individualism. The higher the capacity, the higher the sum of the culture/religion property can get in a city before it decays. The higher the individualism, the more the decay will be applied on the strong cultures/religions so you end up with lots of smaller cultures/religions and on the opposite end of individualism the decay will be applied to the weak cultures/religions so you end up with few strong cultures/religions.

 

[ls612]

I have not decided on the exact formula yet, only on what it will do (self quote from some posts up):

Would it be possible to apply this to religions as they are now? IE, use the same mechanism but don't convert religions into properties, which could cause problems.

 

[AIAndy]

Would it be possible to apply this to religions as they are now? IE, use the same mechanism but don't convert religions into properties, which could cause problems.

If it is a full conversion or not remains to be seen but you need to store religion as more than a boolean to properly apply diffusion or similar.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If it is a full conversion or not remains to be seen but you need to store religion as more than a boolean to properly apply diffusion or similar.

Well, the boolean could be set at a certain percentage of religious influence being present. So to say the religion is in the city, is to say the religion is there in sufficient volume for the general qualifiers of the presence of that religion to be in place. Nevertheless, it does invite looking into where all isReligion calls are being made and switching them over to isReligionValue > x statements playing on the % influence integer.

But that brings up another subject...

You once mentioned we could put a 'newline' in the icon list under the city (on the mainmap view). I've not been able to figure out where that display is generated so as to be able to determine where to place that newline break. But it could be very handy for religions, and also then for cultures, to have these icons displayed where the influence is present enough to be considered there for most prerequisites.

Btw: I totally get what your saying about the fixed values now... thank you for clarifying. Makes complete sense. Seems to me though that we may not need 'capacity' so much as just basing that on the population somehow. What, other than population, would be capable of adjusting the capacity value?

 

[AIAndy]

You once mentioned we could put a 'newline' in the icon list under the city (on the mainmap view). I've not been able to figure out where that display is generated so as to be able to determine where to place that newline break. But it could be very handy for religions, and also then for cultures, to have these icons displayed where the influence is present enough to be considered there for most prerequisites.

It is generated in CvGameTextMgr::buildCityBillboardIconString. Unfortunately a newline there does not push the start of the string upwards. But it is possible to add some newlines so a part of the string ends up below the sign.

Btw: I totally get what your saying about the fixed values now... thank you for clarifying. Makes complete sense. Seems to me though that we may not need 'capacity' so much as just basing that on the population somehow. What, other than population, would be capable of adjusting the capacity value?

I'd actually not make it depend on population. A small population can be very religious and a large one not a lot on the other hand. I thought more about more or less religion friendly civics to influence that value and probably some buildings.

 

[ls612]

If it is a full conversion or not remains to be seen but you need to store religion as more than a boolean to properly apply diffusion or similar.

I'd actually agree with Thunderbrd here and say that it would be better to leave the religion as a boolean which is calculated with a complex property algorithm. That way we could keep Missionaries and the like how they are now while also more naturally simulating organic religious spread and decay.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

With the Trait that grants you to upgrade your unit's (you might have read my post about how OP it is in combo with the current Slavery mechanic in the slaves, hostages POW tread) a Supply Property is desperately needed my idea on how i envision it is stating 1 Supply is 1 move and obey the rules of Movement if it needs to pass through a 2 movement cost terrain then it needs 2 supply to go beyond it etc. idk if this is possible but i guess something like that would be the best method

 

[ls612]

With the Trait that grants you to upgrade your unit's (you might have read my post about how OP it is in combo with the current Slavery mechanic in the slaves, hostages POW tread) a Supply Property is desperately needed my idea on how i envision it is stating 1 Supply is 1 move and obey the rules of Movement if it needs to pass through a 2 movement cost terrain then it needs 2 supply to go beyond it etc. idk if this is possible but i guess something like that would be the best method

That is more an issue with how Slaves work currently, not with the trait or our lack of a supply property. For other units upgrading in enemy territory is nice, but not by any means OP.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

well the upgrading itself isn't OP you are right although Supplies would balance that more as currently Poof sparkle sparkle you upgrade unit's that are on the opposite side of the map with nowhere near an allied city (as the city is on the other side of the map for them)

you could use that also as a proof of concept on the Supplies before extending it to Promotions and damage due to starvation (and possibly also stack damage due to supply rate being lower then demand)

 

[ls612]

well the upgrading itself isn't OP you are right although Supplies would balance that more as currently Poof sparkle sparkle you upgrade unit's that are on the opposite side of the map with nowhere near an allied city (as the city is on the other side of the map for them)

Supplies = ? That is the way I look at it at least. Maybe units should cost more to upgrade in enemy territory (which would be an easy change to make).

 

[Raven Destroyer]

probably a High maintenance building to increase the supply rate a little it's a shame the whole concept of Civ 2 that unit's are tied to a specific city that can be changed was removed at Civ 3 else the Supply thing would have easily also been costing the city Food

 

[AIAndy]

probably a High maintenance building to increase the supply rate a little it's a shame the whole concept of Civ 2 that unit's are tied to a specific city that can be changed was removed at Civ 3 else the Supply thing would have easily also been costing the city Food

I'd still like to see a supply mechanic as described here at some point:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11428277&postcount=24

 

[Raven Destroyer]

yea i forgot that cities also need supplies (and more off it getting bigger and bigger) a small town can be held alive by a goat farm inside the city walls but when you have cities size 50 yea... things will get messy quite fast

my movement idea on supplies would work partially but then you need to differentiate Native supplies (due to Terrain feeding the men instead of their home town) and the the supplies delivered from Cities
Surrounding the City and making it also Aware cities are Surrounded would be the trick to making it also work on Cities with land cities it's either the + and the × that needs a certain number of men on the various tiles right next to the city say below 5 size you only need 2 unit's on opposite sides of the city 5-10 you need 2 unit's per tile on Opposite sides etc. and then get a logic into it making you require a complete surround at say 30 orso with 1 unit on all ends
the Blockade mission on Ships would help out Sea city sieges but that probably be worse to get working

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd actually agree with Thunderbrd here and say that it would be better to leave the religion as a boolean which is calculated with a complex property algorithm. That way we could keep Missionaries and the like how they are now while also more naturally simulating organic religious spread and decay.

Missionaries would probably become a bit more interesting in such a system all in all. They'd tend to spread 'influence' meaning that you may want to enhance the influence of a religion in a given location by sending multiple missionaries in. Missionaries would also probably not be one shot only units but rather, like spies, be returned to their city of origin - and could possibly end up being capable of a variety of tasks, as well as being capable of leveling and gaining further promotions (some of which would be the means by which they could become more useful units.)

Yes, ultimately, most qualifiers for having a religion or not in a city would be a boolean, but that bool would be an evaluation of the overall influence of a religion in the area. For something like a temple, you wouldn't need much influence, maybe 10% - and furthermore, the temple would then slowly add some influence every round for that religion. But for more impressive works, like religion based wonders, it may be more appropriate to have an over 50% influence for that religion in the city.

In fact, perhaps it would be interesting if it would work as the cultural system is envisioned for culture spreading in regards to storyteller types, but with missionaries. Make it so that usually cities just build a missionary (rather than specifying when building the missionary which type you're building). And where the missionary is built, it automatically becomes a missionary for the religion that has the strongest hold on that city (as an exception, perhaps a specific type could be trained if the city is a holy city of that type, regardless of the influence level of the religion - or particular buildings could enable the exception.)

So in short, booleans would be useful in this system, yes, but shouldn't be the only factor.

Supplies = ? That is the way I look at it at least. Maybe units should cost more to upgrade in enemy territory (which would be an easy change to make).

hmm... supplies equal gold... I suppose to an extent. I see gold expenditure involved in upkeep of units as being the pay that goes to those soldiers and their families. But gold expenditure in upgrading as the costs involved in purchasing additional equipment and paying for training time. However, I can agree and I can see how it would make a lot of sense to demand more gold based on the trade network connectivity level to the units when they upgrade (even if they ARE allowed to upgrade outside of your borders.)

But one thing I've always felt was missing from troop upkeep was food. To me, it seems food should not be something that should be approximately achievable with gold without giving the player the ability to purchase food wherever he wishes to for his cities as well. Since this cannot be done, it seems to me inappropriate that units do not have a food upkeep that is distinctly separate from its gold upkeep. I've always had an issue with this and I've suggested some interesting mechanics for it but it all takes such a low priority due to the lack of agreement I've received on this sentiment in general.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Oh dear! I want missionaries to become tactical so we can reduce their numbers to 3 each. And I want religions to spread like in another mod - the World Religions mod. However having said that it may also be necessary to have two or three different kinds of religion - one set for the nomadic eras, another for the city states to nationhood eras and the final set for the later eras (organised religion onwards)

 

[RidetheSpiral23]

Oh dear! I want missionaries to become tactical so we can reduce their numbers to 3 each. And I want religions to spread like in another mod - the World Religions mod. However having said that it may also be necessary to have two or three different kinds of religion - one set for the nomadic eras, another for the city states to nationhood eras and the final set for the later eras (organised religion onwards)

I'm drastically in favor of changing up the way things work in different eras of the game. With the epic scope of C2C, things need to change to keep the interest of players and increase playability value. I know it's a sore subject for some but I feel prehistoric could use a lot of revamping in game mechanics when nomad start is put in. As multi maps has stalled out some for now why not move focus to the second most popular project, Nomad Start.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Oh dear! I want missionaries to become tactical so we can reduce their numbers to 3 each. And I want religions to spread like in another mod - the World Religions mod. However having said that it may also be necessary to have two or three different kinds of religion - one set for the nomadic eras, another for the city states to nationhood eras and the final set for the later eras (organised religion onwards)

Would like to hear more on these ideas because I'm not sure if what your saying is the proposals here are going to be more or less compatible with what you have in mind. Being Tactical may well mean exactly what I'm suggesting... to some extent anyhow.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

In the World Religion mod by Eusebius religions spread fast to all cities once they reach your nation but they do not spread across national boundaries. The speed of spread depend only on the Religion civics and your internal trade network. To get a religion into another nation you need to get a missionary in one of its cities and successfully spread the religion. I always thought that this was a better way to go.

The other idea - different types of religions is still vague and needs discussion. It based on stuff Johny Smith has provided but needs a lot of work.

Nomadic era - religion is local to the tribe.

City State era - tribes still have their own religion but the city states have an official religion on top of this. Eg the family and tribal gods in Rome - it was at this point that tribe and family and city began to get confused. At one point the various tribes in Rome were the voting blocks - everyone in the tribe voted the way the head of the tribe said they should.

Nation era - the nation is the "one religion"...

Theology era - religion is based on theology or the other way round

As I said it is all vague, but the nomad religions would start to die out when you get to the national era which is where the city state religions are merged into one religion. The theology era is where splits start happening but so do mergers.