Extensive Big Bang speculation

ew0054

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If you accept the Big Bang theory, as most people do, surely you will be lead to a connundrum. In the beginning, all of the matter in the universe, anything and everything, was compressed into a singularity. Something happened to cause this point/sphere to expand outward into the universe we all know and love today.

Now this brings up two speculations of mine.

First of all, the theory would suggest that NOTHING exists outside of this sphere. If that holds, then what is the universe expanding INTO? Surely one could speculate vacuum, orempty space, but even that would be something. Space has three dimensions in which an object may freely move.

I would think that an object is "something" if it has definable characteristics and properties; size, weight, color, etc. Even if it has only one definable property it is not "nothing." Empty space, or vacuum if you want to name it, still can be divided into areas that comprise three-dimensional space, therefore it is a "something." Even a one-dimensional line is something because it can be defined by any point within its composition.

A "nothing" object could perhaps occupy a zero-dimensional point. But how can a point exist if it has width, height, and length of zero? In actuality it is not there, but a definable location in a higher-dimensional region of space. We draw points to make them visible, but they are not physically there. So that cannot exist.

If the universe started as a singularity, which has zero dimensions, how could it have existed in the first place?

This then this leads me to ponder something else. Even if we accept that there is nothing outside of the marble-sized universe, what started the reaction in the first place? If all of the matter was compacted into the sphere, how long could it sit there before somethign happened? I lend myself to beleive that it was a homogenous object, that is to say, no one part of the sphere was different from any other part.

According to the theory, atoms were created after the big bang had already taken place, so they could not have caused a reaction internally. So what could have caused the big bang? I beleive that some external reaction would have been necessary to begin the reaction. Consider that the theory has been mapped out to the second just after the big bang occurred, so we "know" how old the universe is.

But what happened before that? And how long was this singularity sitting around before something made it explode? Even though time could not be calculated, can time inselt really have a definitive starting point?

The same applies to the expanding matter, and the notion that there is nothing outside the sphere. If nothign existed out of the sphere then how could the sphere be expanding? It must be filling some 3-dimensional void, but then the void would not be pure nothingness.

I find the concept of a finite universe much more difficult to comprehend than an infinite one.
 
How else could it have happened?
 
Yeah maybe I just don't know enough about it, but it doesn't seem to add up as far as applying what we know about matter and space to this theory.
 
ew0054 said:
How else could it have happened?
Well it could just be an initial point. Maybe time is like temperature, it just doesn't go below absolute zero.
 
I think somethign had to have caused it because otherwise, the singularity wouldn't initiate the reaction. If it was just sitting in empty space not doing anything then it could sit there forever and never react, if it cannot react with itself.

I often have trouble putting my thoughts into words. Here's probably a very elementary example of what I'm trying to say. Consider a pencil. The pencil cannot write by itself; some external force (you or I) needs to make it write. Otherwise the pencil could sit around for years and nothing happens.
 
Perhaps time is just the size of the universe, so as time progresses, the universe gets bigger. No cause, it would just be the nature of time.
 
Where did the matter for the compressed universe/Pre-Big Bang come from?
 
Perfection said:
Well it could just be an initial point. Maybe time is like temperature, it just doesn't go below absolute zero.

Temperature can go to absolute zero, but it can also come up from abs. zero. So temperature can change its "direction" so to speak. But as far as I know, time itself is independant of other factors. No matter what happens, it keeps going.

But your post made me ponder something else. We judge time based on comparing what is happening now to what is happening in the past. Could it be feasable to suggest that time itself exists in importance only when there are at least two objects to compare?

One object moving through space could not be conceived as such because there is nothing else in view to compare it to.

With two objects, one could clearly observe a still object and a moving object, and how the distance between them changes.

But then again, if you glance at a clock when the time is 12:00:00, and don't come back to it for exactly another 12 hours, has time passed or not?

That said, I still don't think time itself stops, only we cannot judge its passing with only one or zero objects.

I don't think time ends, I cannot accept that it began. I can't help but wonder what happened before it began?
 
ew0054 said:
I think somethign had to have caused it because otherwise, the singularity wouldn't initiate the reaction. If it was just sitting in empty space not doing anything then it could sit there forever and never react, if it cannot react with itself.
Don't think of it as a reaction.think of it as an initial point. Time before it is meaningless in my view.
 
ew0054 said:
Temperature can go to absolute zero, but it can also come up from abs. zero. So temperature can change its "direction" so to speak. But as far as I know, time itself is independant of other factors. No matter what happens, it keeps going.
Well, it's dependent on relativistic effects...

When it comes to thinking about the cosmology and physics, don't consider time in the sense you normally do. Think of it as some abstract dimension that interacts with ours. By doing tihs you're better equipped to visualizing time in nontraditional ways.
 
Atlas14 said:
Where did the matter for the compressed universe/Pre-Big Bang come from?

Maybe there was no matter "before" the Universe. Maybe, when time (and space) came into existence, so too did matter.

Frankly, though, saying that there even was a before the Universe is paradoxical in the sense that there was no time and thus no progression of events and thus no concept of "before" or "after" (or "at the same time").

Also, ew0054, temperature can't go to absolute zero. It is physically impossible to remove all heat from something.
 
Do you just mean our universe within a limitless number of universes in the multiverse? Or our universe in a solo-universe existance?
 
Given that we have nothing but speculation on the possibility of other Universes, I think it best that we confine the discussion to a single Universe: our own.
 
With one universe, the grandfather paradox (which just seems ridiculous) is still in effect...which is why I endorse the multiverse! Plus, it allows you to believe that the universe is expanding into the space and universes around it.

But if we are going on the basis of one universe, than I agree that its basically an expansion into the dimension of time.
 
Maybe there was no matter "before" the Universe. Maybe, when time (and space) came into existence, so too did matter.

Frankly, though, saying that there even was a before the Universe is paradoxical in the sense that there was no time and thus no progression of events and thus no concept of "before" or "after" (or "at the same time").

It is paradoxical, but also I thought matter could not be created nor destroyed, so how if there was NO matter at one point in time, could there be matter later in time?
 
Azale said:
With one universe, the grandfather paradox (which just seems ridiculous) is still in effect...which is why I endorse the multiverse! Plus, it allows you to believe that the universe is expanding into the space and universes around it.

But a multiverse doesn't actually solve the origins paradox since the multiverse would still have to come from somewhere. It just makes the paradox a bit further removed from us.

Atlas14 said:
It is paradoxical, but also I thought matter could not be created nor destroyed, so how if there was NO matter at one point in time, could there be matter later in time?

But it isn't a point in time. If all matter comes into existance as time does, then all matter has always existed even if there was a conceptual "period" when both time and matter did not exist.
 
The problem is that our conception of time is radically different than time's role in the physics we have.

In our experience, time is absolute, or at least its direction is. But in relativity, time is just another dimension, and acts just like the spatial dimensions. Thus it is meaningless to talk about a cause of the big bang because a cause implies temporal seperation--but at the beginning of the universe there was no seperation.

In regards to "what was it expanding into?", this is confusing the universe with its contents. Space and time themselves were expanding.
 
But it isn't a point in time. If all matter comes into existance as time does, then all matter has always existed, whether there was a conceptual period when both time and matter did not exist or not.

:( Sorry, I still don't see how matter corresponds to time, and how matter can all of a sudden just "come into existance", potentially as time "comes into existance".
 
Atlas14 said:
:( Sorry, I still don't see how matter corresponds to time, and how matter can all of a sudden just "come into existance", potentially as time "comes into existance".
None of us can grasp it, because of the way we perceive time differently than the other dimensions.
 
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